Iron Fist vs. Midnighter

Originally posted by Sharivan
So, it's usable as was the initial argument you made?

Other can disagree, of course.

As I already noted prediction only gets you so far. You need the actually strength and speed to back you up. There are a lot force users for example who can genuinely sense the future rather than predicting it but it still wouldn't be usable against people faster than they are.

This would have to work under the assumption that Midnighter is as fast, and is strong enough to actually hurt Iron Fist here.

The prior is necessary because as I noted prediction or precognition is useless if you're not fast enough to use it. In order for Midnight to rig the fight in his favor he has to be able to act on his predictions, and then move to set out his plans.

That's the limitation of being able to predict the future or see the future. You yourself need to actually be fast and strong enough that there is scenario where you can actually rig the fight.

Am I faster than a bullet? Hell no. Am I faster in combat speed than some Navy SEAL? Probably (definitely) not. But I knew what he was going to do, where he was going to be located, and could act accordingly.

As you call it.

It's the same with practitioners of the Hercules Method from the Luther Strode trilogy. They can predict the future but there's only so much they can do. There's also the fact that in the case of prediction there are factors you can't accommodate.

Say for instance a sudden eruption of chi. As that's not some typical punch or kick.

...

Scan spamming with the same misinterpretations...

I will make a joy to tear apart all of this in the Kenshiro Gauntlet omfg

Originally posted by RealityWarper
...

Scan spamming with the same misinterpretations...

I will make a joy to tear apart all of this in the Kenshiro Gauntlet omfg

You're seriously going to try and restart that argument days after it was finished?

You know, I would commend you on your tenacity but this is just insane.

By then way have you gotten to this yet?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t631394.html

Originally posted by Sharivan
You're seriously going to try and restart that argument days after it was finished?

You know, I would commend you on your tenacity but this is just insane.

By then way have you gotten to this yet?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t631394.html

Nothing was finished.

I ain't even started. XD

I'm not interested in Star Wars threads.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I see it so, and based on the full scans that REality has posted, plus my own foggy memory, I am confident it can be.

Other can disagree, of course.

I feel the same way.

And Mids HAS used it against faster/stronger people. That's kinda his shtick.

That doesn't work though. If he has that means he is comparable in speed to them. It doesn't mean his battle computer can somehow find a way around this.

You need to actually act on it in time.

Not quite true. I know, for example, that a sniper will shoot me precisely 20 seconds from now. I simply change my location, and come up behind him and knife him in the back.

That still leaves you at a distinct disadvantage. As you need much more time in order to prepare for this beforehand. Against someone who is near you, and can move that much in far less than a second?

Am I faster than a bullet? Hell no. Am I faster in combat speed than some Navy SEAL? Probably (definitely) not. But I knew what he was going to do, where he was going to be located, and could act accordingly.

Which would require Midnighter to have some preparation here. You said they were how far apart again? I remember 0.5 kilometers. That would probably give Midnighter needs for a Door but as I said before. There's Danny's chi to consider, and if Danny closes the distance?

Well, Midnighter is in trouble because then he won't have that time.

Which is what Mids does. He has the happy ending he wants, and works backwards. What does he need to do to ensure it happens?

He needs time. The distance can provide that but at close range he would be at a disadvantage. That's what I am saying here. It requires time with prediction and precognition.

True. Which brings me to the next argument - his enhanced senses. And again, I refer back to the word game analogy. Sure, you COULD say all manner of random words at me. But you won't/can't, if you want to answer the question correctly (which is analogous to blocking a Midnighter punch, for example). I've gone through every single possible way, and every single possible word you could've said, and have settled on wording my question exactly so that it limits you to saying one.

Which is?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Nothing was finished.

I ain't even started. XD

I'm not interested in Star Wars threads.

It was, and you're just going to repeat the same dishonest rhetoric I imagine. Which is going to waste my time again. On top of probably breaking the board rules again.

So then, you're not even going to try?

Very well, if you're not going to bother there. I am not going to bother with you once you spew some thirty pages of keyboard vomit.

Do keep in mind.

An argument from silence is a fallacious tactic.

Originally posted by Sharivan
It was, and you're just going to repeat the same dishonest rhetoric I imagine. Which is going to waste my time again. On top of probably breaking the board rules again.

So then, you're not even going to try?

Very well, if you're not going to bother there. I am not going to bother with you once you spew some thirty pages of keyboard vomit.

Do keep in mind.

An argument from silence is a fallacious tactic.

LOL

You are the one whom pretended that I was making a concession because I wasn't answering to the thread which IS a fallacious argument coming from you.

You will see my answer asap in the Kenshiro Gauntlet.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
LOL

You are the one whom pretended that I was making a concession because I wasn't answering to the thread which IS a fallacious argument coming from you.

You will see my answer asap.

Nope, I asked if you were conceding or not because you didn't answer. Then you tried to say I said you did concede. Which I never claimed that you did.

As I already made clear earlier that was a straw man on your part. You know, kind of like when you tried to play off part of what you typed that got caught in my reply as my own words?

I don't particularly care because I am not bothering with that much keyboard vomit. Well, unless I get that bored.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Nope, I asked if you were conceding or not because you didn't answer. Then you tried to say I said you did concede. Which I never claimed that you did.

As I already made clear earlier that was a straw man on your part. You know, kind of like when you tried to play off part of what you typed that got caught in my reply as my own words?

I don't particularly care because I am not bothering with that much keyboard vomit. Well, unless I get that bored.

1) That's not what you said. I've said that I will not respond AGAIN to your asking (I've already did it) and you said that my concession was accepted.

Do you quit lying sometimes ?

2) You believe that it's a straw man because you don't understand what a straw man is. Continue your trolling anyway it's not like you are the first doing that on the internet. It's always more complicated to be positive than drowning in all that negativism. LOL

3) Do you mean with your keyboard vomit ? So far you failed to recognize your own mistakes about your claims, even it has been pointed out that you was skipping the context you redefined your claims by making-up a new context.

LOL

It has been crazy to the point that you currently believe that Iron Fist has the power to absorb nukes, oh my god...

That's an hard case of cognitive dissonance here.

Originally posted by Sharivan

That doesn't work though. If he has that means he is comparable in speed to them. It doesn't mean his battle computer can somehow find a way around this.

Can't speak for pre-52 Midnighter, but Zack posted a scan of DCnU Midnighter taking down a guy who was Flash-level in speed, and was actively trying to kill Mids. So was doing precisely that (unless you want to make a case for him being Flash-level, lol). But he was explicitly working round it with his computer.

That still leaves you at a distinct disadvantage. As you need much more time in order to prepare for this beforehand. Against someone who is near you, and can move that much in far less than a second?

http://www.brucetringale.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Authority_06.jpg

Note the distance. How fast are these guys, though?

He can be fast. IF there is a gap in speed between these two combatants (of course, debateable), it will be quite small, which can be exploited by the computer and doors.

Which would require Midnighter to have some preparation here. You said they were how far apart again? I remember 0.5 kilometers. That would probably give Midnighter needs for a Door but as I said before. There's Danny's chi to consider, and if Danny closes the distance?

He needs time. The distance can provide that but at close range he would be at a disadvantage. That's what I am saying here. It requires time with prediction and precognition.

Which is?

I predict you will say 'Medal'. If you want to answer my question. But if you don't answer, and answer correctly, I win.

You are free to answer with ANY word you wish, or any combination of letters/numbers, be as random as you want. Do whatever you want. Get drunk, and spell words drunkenly if you want.

But my prediction is that you will say medal.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) That's not what you said. I've said that I will not respond AGAIN to your asking (I've already did it) and you said that my concession was accepted.

Do you quit lying sometimes ?

Yet another straw man. I wasn't referring to that at all. I was talking about what we were talking about earlier.

Originally posted by Sharivan
These scrubs not understanding the SUPERIOR fighting styles of Billy Blanks fitness instructor, and it's unmatched supremacy even among the likes of Black Panther.

Billy Blanks is obviously one of the best of the best in 616.

Niggas hatin' on his swaggity swag.

By the way, RealityWarper don't you have some threads you need to reply to or should I take your absence of a reply as a concession?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) Someone was asked to stop bikering with me. It seems that the message didn't reach.

2) On topic everyone on the team can easily solo and beat Danny Rand considering he isn't even in the same tier than Wolverine and Captain America when it comes to the combat skills, meaning that he isn't even close to Batman, Cassandra Cain and Batwing neither...

[B]In short, the team stomps hard.

3) I guess that every logical fallacies would have been used against my arguments but this one is pretty obvious.

[/B]

As you can see I clearly asked you first.

So, you're taking something out of context and using it to rebuke me. When I never made that particular claim there.

I was referring to that exchange, and nothing else.

2) You believe that it's a straw man because you don't understand what a straw man is.

You believe it's not a straw man because you purposely misunderstood what I was referring to begin with and tried to rebuke that.

Which is a straw man.

Continue your trolling anyway it's not like you are the first doing that on the internet. It's always more complicated to be positive than drowning in all that negativism. LOL

I am not the one who openly admitted to trying to purposely misrepresent another person's argument, and doing so with pride. As if it's something that should win you a medal or something.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) I didn't do any strawman.

2) I quoted twice your post on purpose in my answer to show that you are contradicting yourself.

As seen here.

3) Do you mean with your keyboard vomit ? So far you failed to recognize your own mistakes about your claims, even it has been pointed out that you was skipping the context you redefined your claims by making-up a new context.

Now you're projecting your own failures onto me. When you are the one guilty of this behavior. You even openly admit to trying to sabotage my posts, and make them come off as if I was contradicting myself when I wasn't. It's pretty clear from what I can see.

LOL

It has been crazy to the point that you currently believe that Iron Fist has the power to absorb nukes, oh my god...

That's an hard case of cognitive dissonance here.

As seen in Iron Fist's fight with Master Khan it's explicitly noted that what he was doing with Radion's attacks was the same as what he was doing Master Khan's spells.

I have been over this already.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can't speak for pre-52 Midnighter, but Zack posted a scan of DCnU Midnighter taking down a guy who was Flash-level in speed, and was actively trying to kill Mids. So was doing precisely that (unless you want to make a case for him being Flash-level, lol). But he was explicitly working round it with his computer.

Which doesn't make any sense because prediction is not going to help against someone who is faster than light. The only way this does make sense is if he has some fraction of this person's speed.

As I noted before prediction or precognition is not supposed to actually help with a gap of speed this humongous.

Midnighter did this:

http://www.brucetringale.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Authority_06.jpg

Note the distance. How fast are these guys, though?

He can be fast. IF there is a gap in speed between these two combatants (of course, debateable), it will be quite small, which can be exploited by the computer and doors.

If Midnighter is actually fast enough to keep up with Iron Fist, yes. Which would be the case if you assume those fights were legitimate and not the writers being idiots. By not realizing the different correlation between prediction and movement.

As seen above, he completely and utterly blitzed (and not just with one punch, but completely decimated him) a guy who was matching Apollo in closing speed.

So then, how fast is Apollo and what showings does Midnighter have to support this sort of speed outside of combat? What has he done that's not subject to the inconsistency of fights in comic books?

He has time, and can always door around. With his fight against Seth, he was porting all over the world. Against Apollo, he was using the doors midfight:

If Midnighter is actually as fast as Iron Fist, and if the former isn't wrecked by one of the latter's helicarrier destroying punches. This will help Midnighter in terms of defense, and in closing the distance between them but if the distance is closed the advantage is Iron Fist's due to superior statistics. As well as AOE, and chi disrupting inter-dimensional portals.

'Sharivan, out of all the words in every language ever, what English word begins with 'M', ending with 'Edal', rhymes with 'Metal', and has five letters? They give three of these out to Olympic winners, and these are traditionally made of gold, silver or bronze. It has to be a real word as found in Webster's Dictionary.'

I predict you will say 'Medal'. If you want to answer my question. But if you don't answer, and answer correctly, I win.

You are free to answer with ANY word you wish, or any combination of letters/numbers, be as random as you want. Do whatever you want. Get drunk, and spell words drunkenly if you want.

But my prediction is that you will say medal.

As I already noted before Midnighter's predictions does not excuse any difference in physical ability. As well as any counters Iron Fist may have that are not easily predicted.

Originally posted by Sharivan

As I already noted before Midnighter's predictions does not excuse any difference in physical ability. As well as any counters Iron Fist may have that are not easily predicted.

And besides, it's not like Iron Fist hasn't fought peers who can predict his every move.

Iron Fist Killer? Strong enough and fast enough to take down Luke Cage and Fat Cobra, and read Danny like a book after absorbing his ki.

Originally posted by Sharivan
[B]Yet another straw man. I wasn't referring to that at all. I was talking about what we were talking about earlier.

As you can see I clearly asked you first.

So, you're taking something out of context and using it to rebuke me. When I never made that particular claim there.

I was referring to that exchange, and nothing else.

You are clearly inferring that if I don't answer to the thread I'm conceding thus you're making an argument from silence.

Thanks for proving my point.

You believe it's not a straw man because you purposely misunderstood what I was referring to begin with and tried to rebuke that.

Which is a straw man.

Nope.

I just proved that you use the argument from silence on daily basis.

I am not the one who openly admitted to trying to purposely misrepresent another person's argument, and doing so with pride. As if it's something that should win you a medal or something.

I should win a medal for answering to you when you are openly trolling.

As seen here.

As seen here the continuous misinterpretation of Iron Fist's feats via completely ignoring the context and making-up explanations. GG

Now you're projecting your own failures onto me.

Nice try.

When you are the one guilty of this behavior. You even openly admit to trying to sabotage my posts, and make them come off as if I was contradicting myself when I wasn't. It's pretty clear from what I can see.

Once again that's a gross misinterpretation.

I will expose with force details why you are a liar and or someone whom is relying on cognitive dissonance instead of reading the comic at hand.

I'm sure that you have been calling out about it before and you claims ridiculed.

As seen in Iron Fist's fight with Master Khan it's explicitly noted that what he was doing with Radion's attacks was the same as what he was doing Master Khan's spells.

Unfortunately what you are trying to make pass as an ability to absorb explosion was only Danny absorbing radiation from his hand-to-hand with Radion and surviving because he is more durable than a normal human, as he is peak human because he is summoning his Chi.

Same stuff with Master Khan about the damages...

Danny didn't broke the Crimson band neither because:

A) The spell is shown being dissipated on panel, after Danny calls Yu-Ti upon his responsibility on Danny's parents death, thus making Master Kahn's request accepted by default.
B) Danny summon his Iron Fist AFTER the Crimson bands are dissipated.
C) The Iron Fist enhance the striking power and not the strength thus making it impossible for Danny to destroy the Crimson band via sheer force...

Those 3 points, like many others, literally fly over your head because hey, why reading a character from a comic book when you can create your own, isn't it ?

I have been over this already.

Nope.

You scan spamming is a proof of it, you can't evolve.

And about Danny's combat speed and the overhyped "Drunk Fist", here is the full context:

This pretty much defuse all of your claims about Danny being able to shrugg off Nukes or move thousand of times the speed of sound or the Drunk Kung-Fu being efficient...

GG NO RE

I'm just being started.

These guys don't exist. They're fictional.

If the writers say hey, Midnighter can hit Apollo hard enough in the eardrums to burst them...then he can.

If he is able to snatch a child, completely shred a superhuman, and return to where he was standing before anyone else can move...and in the exact same storyline, they show those superhumans (all clones of each other) matching Apollo, who can cross the world in 30 seconds...then he can.

If he can one shot the Engineer, with a single headbutt etc etc...you get where I'm coming from, I hope.

That's why we don't just rely on handbooks and bios. Their feats also count. And if a character like Midnighter, who does NOT do 'space cheese' feats, but exists purely to phuck stereotypical comic archetypes up, has feats purely in battle....you cannot discount them.

If there is a gap on speed (I don't think so), it isn't massive. And if it is in favour of IF, then the computer plus doors more than evens it out.

Originally posted by cdtm
And besides, it's not like Iron Fist hasn't fought peers who can predict his every move.

Iron Fist Killer? Strong enough and fast enough to take down Luke Cage and Fat Cobra, and read Danny like a book after absorbing his ki.

Read my example, and my Modnighter scan. He isn't predicting based on statistics, he's predicting based on forcing.

He reduces his opponents choice to one, out of millions of different choices.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
These guys don't exist. They're fictional.

If the writers say hey, Midnighter can hit Apollo hard enough in the eardrums to burst them...then he can.

If he is able to snatch a child, completely shred a superhuman, and return to where he was standing before anyone else can move...and in the exact same storyline, they show those superhumans (all clones of each other) matching Apollo, who can cross the world in 30 seconds...then he can.

If he can one shot the Engineer, with a single headbutt etc etc...you get where I'm coming from, I hope.

That's why we don't just rely on handbooks and bios. Their feats also count. And if a character like Midnighter, who does NOT do 'space cheese' feats, but exists purely to phuck stereotypical comic archetypes up, has feats purely in battle....you cannot discount them.

If there is a gap on speed (I don't think so), it isn't massive. And if it is in favour of IF, then the computer plus doors more than evens it out.

The gap in speed between Mid and Apollo is about the way they "propel" themselves, not in hand-to-hand which is a different kind of speed.

For the rest I fugree with you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Read my example, and my Modnighter scan. He isn't predicting based on statistics, he's predicting based on forcing.

He reduces his opponents choice to one, out of millions of different choices.

Basically, it's functionally precog, no?

The thing's hard to quantify, but I file it under the same place I put skills like "Spidey sense", which is "magic". Prediction by plot.

Between the likes of Zealot managing against the computer, and Rand going against various precognitive plot devices (Everything from the Spidey Sense and Iron Fist Killer, Mr. X's tp, to Matt's Radar Sense), at the least the BP should be a wash, imo..

Not if the computer comes up with: Door.

But as seen with my scan. Midnighter predicted the ENTIRE day, down to the conversation they were going to have. Spidey cant do that.

Iron Fist Killer can't do that.

Its more than precog. Its guessing, but guessing based on one choice.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not if the computer comes up with: Door.

Isn't that outside help?

May as well give Batman the JLA teleporter in his fights. 🙁