Ben Kenobi vs. Darth Maul (TPM)

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because the ship was totally not cramped and fighting two opponents totally doesn't take more than a single one.

The novel gives that as the reason Obi-Wan is able to last as long as he did, end of discussion.

I watched it too before posting. He did gave ground against Bane and Vizla, doesn't matter how much. And in duels where he didn't it was brief. Either way your suggestion that he never gives ground is false, since he did so. Against far inferior opponents than Maul.

He gave ground against Bane and Vizla? You mean like two steps? Obi-Wan was litteraly both on the Turtle Tanker and on Florrum running away from Maul, that's something he didn't do in any of his fights, not against Grievous, not against Vizla and not against Bane.

https://youtu.be/NYv_gHAKp1I?t=5s mmm

Looked healthy as ever 👆

And then he got 2 kicks from a mechanical leg that can oneshot Jedi. Yet even then he could tag Maul with kicks and pushes and get his saber back from him.

"He looked injured" that's really a good argument.

Maul kicked Obi-Wan after he got his lightsaber back and that's when Obi-Wan began running away from Maul. The episode guide also confirms that Maul & Savage's raw power was to much for Obi-Wan & Ventress without mentioning any apparent injury or hindrance for Obi-Wan.

Fixed.

He admitted later on that he never intended on killing Obi-Wan, I think that falls under the term holding back.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I just noticed this is TPM Maul. So your argument is even more irrelevant.

Season 4 Maul was stated to be restored to his former power (= TPM) so no it's not irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The novel gives that as the reason Obi-Wan is able to last as long as he did, end of discussion.

And 2 of those 3 circumstances he also had on the ship, yet on Florrum he won and on the ship he got stomped. But sure, ignore how Dun Möch works for the 4th time now.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
He gave ground against Bane and Vizla? You mean like two steps? Obi-Wan was litteraly both on the Turtle Tanker and on Florrum running away from Maul, that's something he didn't do in any of his fights, not against Grievous, not against Vizla and not against Bane.

You need to check out what literally means. Besides Maul > Any of those so ofc he gives more ground. Doesn't mean in any shape or form that Maul is better because of that.

Also nevermind the fact that Kenobi here didn't give ground for 20sec until they were interrupted: https://youtu.be/IqEtXVh8UOo?t=45s

Kenobi can stand his ground just fine, he gives ground when he wants to.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
"He looked injured" that's really a good argument.

Maul kicked Obi-Wan after he got his lightsaber back and that's when Obi-Wan began running away from Maul. The episode guide also confirms that Maul & Savage's raw power was to much for Obi-Wan & Ventress without mentioning any apparent injury or hindrance for Obi-Wan.

I'm sorry if the notion that someone who just awoken from concussion is not healthy is incomprehensible to you. Watch some ER or something.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not everything needs to be spelled out.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
He admitted later on that he never intended on killing Obi-Wan, I think that falls under the term holding back.

Yeah...no. Maul didn't want to kill Kenobi but he wanted to capture him. To capture him he needed to beat him. Someone as skilled as Maul can beat his enemy without killing him. It's called disarming or crippling or KOing.

Dooku also used Dun Moch against Anakin you know and we all know how that turned out. As of now you have presented nothing which indicates that Obi-Wan was hindered by it, instead I proved the exact opposite (TPM) but please I'm still waiting.

Obi-Wan didn't give ground to any of those opponents, I don't know how you apparently faili to see that. In RotS against Grievous that's called giving ground, not just taking two steps back. So Obi-Wan now chooses when he gives ground, even when he doesn't have to? You came to that conclusion all by yourself? Great, now present real evidence and then we can talk.

Now you've determined he had a concussion? Things get crazier every moment.

Maul still needs to make sure he doesn't mortally wound him, which in any case is a hindrance but it hardly matters. Maul was overwhelming Obi-Wan anyway.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Dooku also used Dun Moch against Anakin you know and we all know how that turned out. As of now you have presented nothing which indicates that Obi-Wan was hindered by it, instead I proved the exact opposite (TPM) but please I'm still waiting.

Right. So Kenobi performing worse than any other time against Maul means he was amped not weakened.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Obi-Wan didn't give ground to any of those opponents, I don't know how you apparently faili to see that. In RotS against Grievous that's called giving ground, not just taking two steps back. So Obi-Wan now chooses when he gives ground, even when he doesn't have to? You came to that conclusion all by yourself? Great, now present real evidence and then we can talk.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about it. Stepping back is giving ground. Kenobi is a Soresu fighter, giving ground is the logical thing to do.

Although I love how you ignore part of my arguments and then pretend you are winning.

Are you ever gona address this?

Also nevermind the fact that Kenobi here didn't give ground for 20sec until they were interrupted: https://youtu.be/IqEtXVh8UOo?t=45s

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Now you've determined he had a concussion? Things get crazier every moment.

So if someone is beaten unconscious for several hours he didn't have a concussion? Damn, what kind of backwater 3rd world country are you live in if you have no idea about simple biology?

Just for reference, Kenobi was unconscious in RotS for only a few minutes yet he had a concussion:

Bad as Obi-Wan looked, Anakin had stood over the bodies of too many friends on too many battlefields to be panicked by a little blood. One touch to Obi-Wan's throat confirmed the strength of his pulse, and that touch also let Anakin's Force perception flow through the whole body of his friend. His breathing was strong and regular, and no bones were broken: this was a concussion, no more.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul still needs to make sure he doesn't mortally wound him, which in any case is a hindrance but it hardly matters. Maul was overwhelming Obi-Wan anyway.

And duelists happen to guard their vital areas the most 😬

I guess Kenobi held back too on Mustafar since he only crippled Anakin and didn't kill him.

Originally posted by Kurk
Maul

All this comparing TCW Maul when he just got out of insanity, hasn't duelled in ages, and still curbed Obi-Wan hehe

This isn't Season 4 Maul, it's current TCW Maul - or SoD Maul, who's confirmed to be more powerful than his prior incarnation.

Ben Kenobi's power level hasn't been properly defined yet IMO.

But I'm guessing the better comparison to Ben Kenobi would be Rebels Maul.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Right. So Kenobi performing worse than any other time against Maul means he was amped not weakened.

He only fought Maul two times and he actually performed worse on Florrum where he barely engaged Maul but started to run away almost immediately.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about it. Stepping back is giving ground. Kenobi is a Soresu fighter, giving ground is the logical thing to do.

The problem is that Obi-Wan isn't an overly defensive fighter in The Clone Wars. I listed all his fights and analysed them.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEh0SE3lSiE).
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous (0:00 – 0:30): We see how Obi-Wan engages General Grievous on the train inside the Malevolence. He blocks Grievous his blow and proceeds to run away until he’s taken down by Grievous.
---> He takes on a rather defensive approach as he is running away until he is defeated.
Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Asajj Ventress (0:30 – 2:44): First Anakin engages Asajj Ventress alone when they fight on the stairs until the screen cuts to another scene. Next Ventress is fighting both Anakin & Obi-Wan simultaneously being slowly pushed back until 1:05 when she decides to run away.
---> He takes on an aggressive approach.
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous & MagnaGuards (2:44 – 5:15): It begins when Obi-Wan takes out one MagnaGuard with the help of the others and then proceeds to fight both Grievous & the remaining MagnaGuard until he destroys the remaining droid (4:00). He begins fighting Grievous on even ground until he is kicked back, he then proceeds to hold off the General until he uses the Force to defeat him (4:55).
---> He takes on a rather defensive approach but this is explained by the fact that he needed to hold off the General until Anakin could free Eeth Koth.
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous (5:15 – 5:40): In the same episode Obi-Wan fight Grievous again, fighting on even ground until the tunnel starts collapsing.
---> He takes on Grievous on even ground without giving ground or showing any kind of inclination to fight defensively.
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous (5:40 – 6:16): We see how Obi-Wan starts attacking Grievous on Saleucami, driving Grievous back against the hull of the escape pod and disarming him. The fight is ended when Grievous kicks Obi-Wan back and escapes.
---> He takes on an aggressive approach, driving Grievous back.
Obi-Wan vs Pre Vizla (6:16 – 7:40): We see how Obi-Wan and Vizla fight on even ground, blocking or dodging blows until Obi-Wan uses the Force to throw Vizla back (6:44). Then Vizla tries to launch another offensive which Obi-Wan responds to by standing his ground and proceeds to attack Vizla effectively disarming him. The lightsaber duel ends then when Vizla disarms Obi-Wan through hand-to-hand combat while Obi-Wan proceeds to counter an assault from Vizla and defeat him.
---> He takes on a neutral approach, fighting Vizla on even ground.
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous (7:40 – 9:25): On Kamino both fighters start to fight evenly until Grievous uses his extra arm to thrown back Obi-Wan who in response uses the Force (8:35). The second part of the fight begins around 8:58 but it directly interrupted when the platform, where they were standing on, is destroyed.
---> He fights Grievous on even ground until the fight is interrupted.
Obi-Wan vs Cad Bane (9:25 – 10:06): The lightsaber duel starts in 9:33 when both fighters engage each other on even ground until Obi-Wan disarms Bane.
---> He takes on a neutral approach.
Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Ventress (10:06 – 12:00): The Jedi fight Ventress together eventually forcing her back until she Force Chokes them. Then they proceed to disarm her.
---> He takes on a rather offensive approach.
Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Savage Opress (12:00 – 12:52): Both Anakin & Obi-Wan only defend against Savage until the droids start to attack Savage, hereby ending the fight.
---> He takes on a rather defensive approach alongside Anakin.
Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Ahsoka (12:52 – 13:25): Both Anakin & Obi-Wan again only defend against Ahsoka because they don’t want to harm her.
---> He takes on a defensive approach alongside Anakin because they don’t want to injure Ahsoka.
Obi-Wan vs Maul & Savage (13:25 – 14:50): We see how Obi-Wan fights Savage Opress until he is disarmed and knocked unconscious.
---> He takes on a neutral approach but the fight itself is short.
Obi-Wan vs Maul (14:50 – 17:28): Obi-Wan holds de edge in the beginning of the fight until he retrieves his lightsaber (16:12). Both fighters then fight evenly until 16:15 when Maul starts to gain the edge, Obi-Wan then proceeds to seek higher ground. They both start to duel again with Maul getting the upper hand. The fight is ended when both Obi-Wan & Ventress decide to run away.
---> He fights Maul on even ground, showing no signs of a defensive approach until he is force back.
Obi-Wan vs Maul (17:28 – 19:45): Both engage again in a lightsaber duel, both brothers force the Jedi back (17:52). Maul then continues to fight Obi-Wan, slowly pushing him back, until the fight is interrupted by Adi’s death. Obi-Wan proceeds to run away into the cave. The second part of the fight begins in 18:54 when Obi-Wan holds off both brothers until he injures Savage and the fight is ended.
---> He takes on a neutral approach to the fight until he is force back. In the second part he shows a more aggressive fighting style.
Obi-Wan vs General Grievous (19:45 – 19:53): Both fight again on even ground but the fight is only short.
---> Takes on a normal approach.
Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku (19:53 – 21:27): Both Jedi fight Dooku, eventually forcing him back but the Count escapes on a ship that’s passing by.
---> Takes on an aggressive approach alongside Anakin.

The conclusion is that Obi-Wan never takes on a defensive approach to any kind of lightsaber fight except when it's part of the plan (We see how he both against Ventress in TCW Movie & against Grievous on the battle over Saleucami has to keep his opponent busy in order for Anakin to complete the mission). In his fight against Maul on the Turtle Tanker he's forced back almost immediately after regaining his lightsaber and eventually decides to run away. He even comments that he is outmatched and this is confirmed by the episode guide on StarWars.com which claims that Maul overwhelmed Obi-Wan. On their other confrontation on Florrum we see how Maul directly forces Obi-Wan back to the point he just ran away, something he didn't do in any of his other TCW fights besides against Grievous on the Malevolence where he was defeated. The only evidence you brought forward against Maul dominating both fights is that he took on both brothers in the cave on Florrum which is direclty stated by Shadow Conspiracy novel was only becuase the space in the cave was cramped and the brothers were hindering each other.

To summarize everything: We see how Obi-Wan in all of his TCW fights takes on a neutral, normal, approach, from Grievous to Pre Vizla, while ONLY against Maul he's effectively forced back, outmatched and overwhelmed.

Although I love how you ignore part of my arguments and then pretend you are winning.

Are you ever gona address this?

That only showes that Obi-Wan didn't take any kind of defensive approach to the fight but was rather forced into it. You proved my point, thank you.

So if someone is beaten unconscious for several hours he didn't have a concussion? Damn, what kind of backwater 3rd world country are you live in if you have no idea about simple biology?

Just for reference, Kenobi was unconscious in RotS for only a few minutes yet he had a concussion:

I do actually have more then standard knowledge on biology. The difference is that on the Turtle Tanker Obi-Wan only had been unconscious for a few moments while on the Invisible Hand he was choked out and thrown against a wall. The damage and time of unconsciousness in both cases are far bigger in your example then on the Turtle Tanker in Season 4.

And duelists happen to guard their vital areas the most 😬

I guess Kenobi held back too on Mustafar since he only crippled Anakin and didn't kill him.

And that matters because?

He mortally injured Anakin. There is a big difference between trying to capture someone or heavily injuring him but it hardly matters for my entire argument anyways.

Noice short story ^