Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
It sounds like you don't get how Speed Steal works Realitywarper. You don't need to be connected to the Speed force in order for someone to steal your speed
I completely understand how it works.
I understand that Sentry being not powered by the Speed Force will make Flash unable to speed steal Sentry, moreover Sentry is said by Osborn's agents in storming Asgard to have limitless speed.
look at Jay Garrick doing it to Superman. All you need is momentum.
You can handwave the scan all you want, Jay said that a being not powered by the speed force can't be speed stolen which is the case with Sentry.
None of the JLA members can deal with Sentry's massive powers over reality and that's all that matters.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
His powers remains the same.So far you are trying to avoid posting what I've asked.
So the fundamental nature of a power cna be changed via forum rules now ? Ok.
Sentry doesn't move using the Speed Force so Flash can't speed steal him.
So are all characters in that thread.
Being at full capacity doesn't makes Flash untouchable.
This doesn't improves Flash fighting skills.
Nice for him
That's the Sentry Marvel uses, especially fighting at full capacity.
Sentry casually and effortlessly erased Molecule Man, at full capacity that's beyond spite.
Still waiting for you to post the scans that I've asked.
All of your possession stuff was already countered.
The Void can possess people and is far more powerful than Obsidian, he can't possess Sentry.
Powers remain the same, but they are also tied to his character and mindset.
Avoiding you? I asked for scans of Sentry first....you can hardly accuse me of ducking the q when you try to muddy it with your own accusations.
Guillotine blades and bullets don't tap into the speed force either; Flash does it all the same. He steals momentum.
You were the one who said Sentry has casually faced attacks like what he will face here before; I asked for proof, then you suddenly start asking for proof.
And no, Sentry is not at DS Sentry levels. Ask OP to clarify which sentry, if you want.
But logically, if he has asked for no HH level characters, the Defenders cant be above HH either. That surely makes sense to you, no?
Originally posted by RealityWarperBased on ? Obsidian is made of Shadows...
http://i.imgur.com/3LhJogM.jpg
"Obsidian is a three-dimensional shadow."
The canon of the character.
Basing an argument on a pre COIE data sheet on Obsidian that is vastly outdated doesn't help your cause.
Obsidian is Vastly more than "a three dimensional shadow".
He's a merger of the power of the shadowlands and the starheart.
Please by all means show me when a mere three dimensional shadow is capable of near omnipresence
http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2693124-everywhere_at_once.jpg
Clearly not as he is "described" in your data sheet.
Failing at killing himself doesn't makes him immortal. No limits fallacy, hello.Stabbing a shadow... Come on...
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5436999-1+combined+spec+alan+ans+starman.jpg
It took the combined power of Corrigan Spectre (NOT the weak a$$ later copies) Alan Scot and Starman to shatter Ian Karkull's form. NOT destroy it mind you (because he reformed) but just for a temporary victory.
Obsidian is that power merged with the starheart ( the collection of magic in the universe from a point in time). In short Ian is at most HALF his power (probably vastly less considering Todd casually absorbed him)
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437004-jsa+%238+-+page+19.jpg
http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437005-jsa+%238+-+page+20.jpg
As shown here Todd is the embodiment of the shadowlands. A realm of nothing. A realm that predates matter.
http://dcuniverseonline.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowlands
By all means please show me the feats of a mere High Herald level Sentry (as per the threads limits) that can do more damage than say the combined power of Galactus, Dr Strange, and Silver Surfer. Oh sorry destructive power DOUBLE that level.
Since you want to go by that outdated data sheet lets look at one thing on it. It states his power is like that of Shade. This is correct (as it's been stated several times when the two have interacted)
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437001-3820795-8563225343-38197.jpg
The power of the Shade would be hard for even the Spectre (who has multiversal feats) to beat. No High Herald level version of Sentry is capable of multiversal level feats (because that is trans, not high herald).
Then there is the fact that in Justice Society 26/27 Todd Shielded the JSA brown stone from a spiritual entity that even the Spectre couldn't contain. He did this right up until the combined attacks of the spirits, Alan Scot and an amped Stargirl.
Sufficient to stand up to any high herald going all out.
a) It's not the way Obsidian is described.b) He can die.
c) Sentry can manipulate matter and energy (the reality) so disintegrating him isn't a problem.
a) The "description" your using doesn't seem to fit the way the character is portrayed somehow.
b) And yet his history says otherwise. Please tell me why, IF he can die when the Fourth Reich started their actions for the fatherland and managed to develop ways to kill or depower EVERY other hero they instead had to prep and acquire an artifact to contain Obsidian as an egg? I'd also like to know why all they had to do to defeat the Reich was release Obsidian. They had ways of destroying every other character even above high herald bu7t not Todd.
Rogue couldn't absorb his powers.The Super-Adaptoid was able to steal the powers of Kubik and he was merely able to emulate Sentry's flying powers and wasn't close to become as powerful as he is before Sentry wrecked him with his psionic powers.
Absorbing-Man was able to absorb a fragment of a Cosmic Cube but Sentry's power was too much for him...
Galactus isn't vastly over Sentry, that's the other way around.
Iron Man said that Sentry has "unlimited psionic powers" and that he could warp the reality and give us another House of M to deal with.
He swated Molecule Man like a fly, proving that he is definitely more powerful than this Omniversal-character able to erase Lifegiver Galactus with a tought.
Ohh that's right, NONE. Any Sentry that is above Galactus isn't high herald level as per OP.
Good luck to control an Horseman of Death whom see Death as a beautiful thing and doesn't care hurting people.
Yeah sure. Now Dr Fate is as powerful as MM...
Where exactly did I say that?? I said he can matter manipulate like MM. The two things are not the same.
His best feat is to tangle with the Spectre...
Hardly, he lost to Spectre each time. he faired well and held up longer than many but far from his "best feat" The fact is Fate
Sentry eat him for breakfast.
AHHH, Spectre has multiversal lvel feats. so your telling me that a high herald is no >>> multiversal??
1) Flash can't steal the kinetic energy of people not from the DC Universe because they don't move using the Speed Force.
Really?? because he's stolen the speed of people within the DCU who "DONT MOVE USING THE SPEED FORCE" like Superman - WHO DOESN'T
3) Flash couldn't Speed Force Dump Superboy-Prime on his own and you believe he stands a chance against Sentry alone or any member of the team ?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111159554/3983771-3304356-bfr1.jpg
If he had he wouldn't have needed anyone, JUST HIS mind.
A) Flash has zero chance to do anything to Sentry, not even moving him into the Speed Force. He will get killed right off the bat or laughed away.B) Many members of the Avengers can move from Dimension to Dimension easily so the Speed Force Dump isn't an High-End move like you pretend he is: Thor, Dr Strange and many other can escape the Speed Force in a few moments.
C) Flash durability is too low when he isn't running at full capacity and he will get down very easily. [/B]
As shown above the only way out of the speed force is Flash. Others with the ability to travel dimensions or break them haven't been able to leave it.
Now I realise your using Sentry at his peak but that isn't the case here. A fact everyone else got.
Originally posted by Facee
So pick out any JLA members HH or lower to defeat this Marvel line up.Marvel team: Let's call them " The New Defenders".
Thor
Surfer
Hyperion
Hulk
Sentry no void
StrangeVs. The JLA roster of your choice, HH or lower...
The version of Sentry your trying to use is against the rules.
the rules are pretty clear
No Spite Threads
Now, a spite thread is usually considered as a thread opened to intentionally be one-sided (because the poster may not like that character, or opened to goad another person into responding, etc.). Moderators will decide if or if not a thread was made out of spite. Spite threads are NOT tolerated and will be closed, and the poster warned (or more severe consequences will be taken if that poster's been warned multiple times).
Originally posted by RealityWarper
I completely understand how it works.I understand that Sentry being not powered by the Speed Force will make Flash unable to speed steal Sentry, moreover Sentry is said by Osborn's agents in storming Asgard to have limitless speed.
You can handwave the scan all you want, Jay said that a being not powered by the speed force can't be speed stolen which is the case with Sentry.
None of the JLA members can deal with Sentry's massive powers over reality and that's all that matters.
I think you should read the scan again. They can't speed steal Zoom because he doesn't use SPEED. Not because he doesn't use speed force.
http://s673.photobucket.com/user/galanphotos/media/zoom_time.jpg.html
Zoom actually moves at normal speed but on a different time line so everything appears slow to him and he fast to everyone else.
He could stand still and be faster than Flash, hence why they can't steal his speed, he has none.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Stop including the Sentry in hero fights. Even with the 'no Void' stipulation, no one really knows how powerful he would be.
Lol we do know how powerful he is. Somewhere between high herald and trans. The problem is we have trolls using fanfic to debate instead of shit that happens in comics
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PS: Zoom taps into time, not speed. Proof Sentry taps into time everytime he moves, please?
My statement isn't that Sentry taps into time.
Sentry taps into everything BUT the Speed Force to move, which is essential for Flash to drain him of his speed.
Sentry doesn't tap into the Speedforce as it's exclusive for DC so Flash has no ways to drain him.
He has limitless speed which makes him impossible to drain.
He is too powerful for Flash to drain.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
My statement isn't that Sentry taps into time.Sentry taps into everything BUT the Speed Force to move, which is essential for Flash to drain him of his speed.
Sentry doesn't tap into the Speedforce as it's exclusive for DC so Flash has no ways to drain him.
Originally posted by RealityWarperProve it
He has limitless speed which makes him impossible to drain.
Originally posted by RealityWarperProve it. Also I don't recall this ever having happened before.
He is too powerful for Flash to drain.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Powers remain the same, but they are also tied to his character and mindset.
And it was Sentry whom destroyed Molecule Man, not Void so except if you can show me a crazy Sentry with Dark Speech Bubbles trying to kill everything and everyone your fanfic never happened.
Avoiding you? I asked for scans of Sentry first....you can hardly accuse me of ducking the q when you try to muddy it with your own accusations./QUOTE]The fact that you asked first doesn't gives you any priority on the topic.
Abilities have to be countered in order of power and relevancy.
A) The JLA having a way to counter Sentry's reality warping is essential because without it, no debate is possible as Sentry instantly wins this fight via wishing them out of existence.
B) I already gave many examples of why Deadman and Co possession doesn't matter. it's one of Sentry main power to invade the minds and control them via negative energy. He did it subconciously to Emma Frost while he was fighting against Namor.
[QUOTE]Guillotine blades and bullets don't tap into the speed force either; Flash does it all the same. He steals momentum.
As far as I know the Speed Force encompasses everything in the DC Universe, that's why the Flashes can run everywhere at crazy speeds and that's why Flash is as fast as any human in the Marvel Universe, powerless.
That matters here too because whatever you try it, Sentry doesn't use the speedforce to speed-up which your point completely moot.
You were the one who said Sentry has casually faced attacks like what he will face here before; I asked for proof, then you suddenly start asking for proof.
The Void possess people casually, which means that Sentry whom fight him all the time is immune to that power.
And no, Sentry is not at DS Sentry levels. Ask OP to clarify which sentry, if you want.
Sentry has no Void here which means that he is stable which that he is at the same power-level.
The only difference between a stable Sentry and DS Sentry is a complete absence of morals.
But logically, if he has asked for no HH level characters, the Defenders cant be above HH either. That surely makes sense to you, no?
English please.
Originally posted by beatboks
The canon of the character.
Basing an argument on a pre COIE data sheet on Obsidian that is vastly outdated doesn't help your cause.
Obsidian is Vastly more than "a three dimensional shadow".
He's a merger of the power of the shadowlands and the starheart.
Yeah. He is still a 3 dimensional shadow.
Please by all means show me when a mere three dimensional shadow is capable of near omnipresencehttp://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2693124-everywhere_at_once.jpg
Clearly not as he is "described" in your data sheet.
He is a 3D shadow and is moving in the shadows, that's not true omnipresence.
You want some limits finehttp://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5436999-1+combined+spec+alan+ans+starman.jpg
It took the combined power of Corrigan Spectre (NOT the weak a$$ later copies) Alan Scot and Starman to shatter Ian Karkull's form. NOT destroy it mind you (because he reformed) but just for a temporary victory.
It just need a thought to Sentry to get rid of him.
Obsidian is that power merged with the starheart ( the collection of magic in the universe from a point in time). In short Ian is at most HALF his power (probably vastly less considering Todd casually absorbed him)http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437004-jsa+%238+-+page+19.jpg
http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437005-jsa+%238+-+page+20.jpg
As shown here Todd is the embodiment of the shadowlands. A realm of nothing. A realm that predates matter.
http://dcuniverseonline.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowlands
Citing his power-source doesn't change the fact that he is a f****** 3D shadow.
By all means please show me the feats of a mere High Herald level Sentry (as per the threads limits) that can do more damage than say the combined power of Galactus, Dr Strange, and Silver Surfer. Oh sorry destructive power DOUBLE that level.
Sentry isn't "an herald-level character".
As said by Tony Stark in "Civil War: Battle Damage Report" and "Civil War Files" he is capable of creating a new House of M and he has unlimited psionic power.
Show me Galactus, Dr Strange or Silver Surfer being mentioned to approaching at least that power.
Since you want to go by that outdated data sheet lets look at one thing on it. It states his power is like that of Shade. This is correct (as it's been stated several times when the two have interacted)http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/5437001-3820795-8563225343-38197.jpg
it's not outdated, maybe you don't understand what you are reading:
Obsidian's power is compared to the one of an Elemental of Darkness AKA a fraging 3D shadow.
The power of the Shade would be hard for even the Spectre (who has multiversal feats) to beat. No High Herald level version of Sentry is capable of multiversal level feats (because that is trans, not high herald).
Nice Argumentum ad Verbosium, I only believed theonewhoknows to be capable of it. XD
Sentry power-level is described as infinite and literally confirmed by Jenkins AND Bendis whom are authorities at Marvel about the character.
In short there is 3 official sources confirming that Sentry's power-level is unlimited:
*One from the comic books as said by Tony Stark whom is valid authority in the comics and one of the greatest scientist in the Marvel Universe.*
*Two authorities coming from Marvel itself as the creator of the character and his main writer those last years.*
Then there is the fact that in Justice Society 26/27 Todd Shielded the JSA brown stone from a spiritual entity that even the Spectre couldn't contain. He did this right up until the combined attacks of the spirits, Alan Scot and an amped Stargirl.
Spectre is a weakling compared to Sentry or Molecule Man, using him as "being incapable to beat Obsidian" isn't an argument.
Sufficient to stand up to any high herald going all out.
Nice for them, really.
a) The "description" your using doesn't seem to fit the way the character is portrayed somehow.
It doesn't.
It's an Elemental of Darkness AKA a 3D shadow.
b) And yet his history says otherwise. Please tell me why, IF he can die when the Fourth Reich started their actions for the fatherland and managed to develop ways to kill or depower EVERY other hero they instead had to prep and acquire an artifact to contain Obsidian as an egg? I'd also like to know why all they had to do to defeat the Reich was release Obsidian. They had ways of destroying every other character even above high herald bu7t not Todd.
That's not an argument again.
Show me Obsidian resisting a reality manipulation at Sentry's level AKA superior to the Omniversal Molecule Man's reality manipulation and just stop that Argumentum Ad Verbosium.
Remind me again which one of these feats apply to a High Herald level Sentry as per the limits set ???Ohh that's right, NONE. Any Sentry that is above Galactus isn't high herald level as per OP.
Sentry isn't an "high herald-level character" so the OP have to chose another TEAM for the JSA to deal with.
Again not a mere High Herald level Sentry. Did you even read the OP??
"High Herald level" Sentry doesn't exist so the OP will chose another character for his thread.
Lowballing is against the rules so you and the OP are wrong lowballing the Sentry.
Where exactly did I say that?? I said he can matter manipulate like MM. The two things are not the same.
The comparison is completely erroneous.
Comparing Dr Fate and Dr Strange would have been accurate.
It's like saying that RJ Mite can lift weight like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Hardly, he lost to Spectre each time. he faired well and held up longer than many but far from his "best feat" The fact is Fate
I've never said that he wins but tangle I obviously means that he fought the Spectre.
AHHH, Spectre has multiversal lvel feats. so your telling me that a high herald is no >>> multiversal??
I mean that Sentry is not as weak as you are making him.
Stop lowballing.
Really?? because he's stolen the speed of people within the DCU who "DONT MOVE USING THE SPEED FORCE" like Superman - WHO DOESN'T
The Speed Force is all-encompassing in the DCNU.
Flash hadn't even truly learned speed force dump then
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111120432/4830573-8992173040-36741.jpghttp://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111159554/3983771-3304356-bfr1.jpg
If he had he wouldn't have needed anyone, JUST HIS mind.
1) Grodd was powered by the Speed Force
2) Barry & Co had to PUSH Super Emoboyprime to have a chance to dump him.
a stable Sentry can easily block Exitar so:
A) He would have to push Sentry harder than that to have a chance to dump him.
B) Sentry can instantly disintegrate Flash with thought while he is trying to do it.
As shown above the only way out of the speed force is Flash. Others with the ability to travel dimensions or break them haven't been able to leave it.
Sentry shown that he can teleport and move through dimensions like the Microverse as he found his way out on his own.
This doesn't matter as the speed force dump is useless against him and the whole team will be disintegrated with a thought.
Now I realise your using Sentry at his peak but that isn't the case here. A fact everyone else got.
I'm using Sentry at his normal power-levels as he is stable.
Stable no void so he has limitless power-levels.
A thing that everyone got wrong.
The version of Sentry your trying to use is against the rules.
the rules are pretty clear
Nope.
The OP and you are trying to make the Sentry pass for an Herald which is lowballing and clearly against the rules.
Originally posted by Cogito
That's not how this forum works 😬Prove it
Prove it. Also I don't recall this ever having happened before.
That is how the Speed Force and the Speed Steal works.
Originally posted by Facee
No one here should be higher than HH. Take all characters at a HH power level. Any character that is higher than HH will be replaced.
Exactly.
The OP could use Hulk, Hyperion or Thor.
Using Sentry and stating that he is herald-level when Marvel itself clearly said that he has limitless power-level is lowballing and against the rules.
Originally posted by beatboks
I think you should read the scan again. They can't speed steal Zoom because he doesn't use SPEED. Not because he doesn't use speed force.http://s673.photobucket.com/user/galanphotos/media/zoom_time.jpg.html
Zoom actually moves at normal speed but on a different time line so everything appears slow to him and he fast to everyone else.
He could stand still and be faster than Flash, hence why they can't steal his speed, he has none.
It is clearly stated that they can't steal his kinetic energy because he is using Time instead of the Speed Force.
Re: Defeat this Marvel team with the JLA
Thor
Surfer
Hyperion
Hulk
Sentry no void
Strange
Vs.
Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson)
Superman
Shazam
Wonder Woman
The Martian Manhunter
Orion
Without getting silly, that's about the toughest 6-man JLA line-up you are gonna get. And depending which methodology you use to rate the fight, it's pretty competitive, assuming we have some kind of arbitrary cap on the Sentry. Runner up DC possibilities might be Power Girl or Supergirl, depending on whether they are considered JLA. Captain Atom has a wide variety of portrayals, and some might be considered powerful enough to merit inclusion. But I don't recall any of those portrayals of Cap being on the JLA. Besides, in terms of how they ranked in the comics hierarchy, I think the more Doctor Manhattan-ish portrayals of Captain Atom may be overrated, though I imagine they get some respect here.
