Originally posted by Beniboybling
According to what source? In Darth Plagueis he still doesn't even know Palpatine is the Sith Lord by the end of TPM. Another source has Palpatine ruminating on the nature of his next apprentice after Maul was killed.
According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller.
Originally posted by ares834Fair a retcon then, however considering that Sidious considered Maul a "loss" where Tyranus was a "proton torpedo", it still seems doubtful Dooku was intended to replace him.
According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller.
Maul's story is sad and depressing. He is a failure in the sense that he had much potential which was never completely achieved due to Sidious using him as a complete tool and leaving him for dead. A second rate Anakin story.
Yoda is a failure in a way too. An accomplished jedi but he has had his retard moments and allowed his arrogance to cloud his vision and allow order 66 to happen.
Dooku was a complete success as a jedi. He's only seen as a failure by some for being ultimately deceived by Sidious and treated like a tool in the end.
Anakin is a failure, but I sympathize with him the most out of any character. With all the trauma he went through as a child and teenage years it's not surprising that he turned out how he did. So much potential ultimately wasted. A tragedy.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair a retcon then, however considering that Sidious considered Maul a "loss" where Tyranus was a "proton torpedo", it still seems doubtful Dooku was intended to replace him.
That analogy's always used out of context, lol. Maul was a loss because Palpatine didn't plan for his demise in TPM and had more in store for him, whereas Dooku's death in RotS was indeed planned out by Sidious, who had expended Dooku's usefulness.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, Sidious had more plans for him, or rather he didn't plan to replace him. If Tyranus had really been his successor then Maul's death would have been convenient, not a loss.
Because Sidious wasn't ready for his loss, lol. He was considering replacing Maul with Tyranus but hadn't even remotely finalized anything when Maul was suddenly taken from him.
He was ready for Tyranus' death on the other hand, since he had already spent the course of the war manipulating Anakin into that perfect position, and Dooku had already done what Palpatine needed him to do. Had Tyranus died prematurely like Maul, Sidious would also call him a "loss".
Not to mention Palpatine took Dooku under his wing after learning of Anakin, whose immense potential made him a natural replacement for whoever Palpatine's apprentice was (had Maul been the apprentice then, he'd be replaced too). When Palpatine found Maul, such things weren't on his mind. At the time, he didn't necessarily have the intention to just train and discard him.
They're entirely separate examples, and Palpatine used and needed them for different things. Not saying that Maul is any more of a failure than the Count. They were failures in their own ways.
Now you're introducing new information, we know that in the Canon Sidious gave Dooku the title of Tyranus prior to Maul's death (and also prior to him meeting Anakin), but that is all I've seen sources for. I'd like to know where your introducing these other conclusions from.
And this particular point isn't to do with who is more of a failure, but whether Sidious planned to replace Maul with Tyranus as his apprentice.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Now you're introducing new information, we know that in the Canon Sidious gave Dooku the title of Tyranus prior to Maul's death (and also prior to him meeting Anakin), but that is all I've seen sources for. I'd like to know where your introducing these other conclusions from.And this particular point isn't to do with who is more of a failure, but whether Sidious planned to replace Maul with Tyranus as his apprentice.
What new information? And yeah, the TCW retcon certainly throws a wrench in the works.
As for what this point is about, fair enough. But then, you either accept Darth Plagueis, where it isn't concrete, but at least Palpatine mused of having Dooku replace Maul, or TCW, where Palpatine christened Dooku as a Darth even before Maul's demise, as if anticipating his loss (perhaps not so soon, but in the future). After all, even in Canon, Palpatine adheres to the policy of only two Sith at once, as he says to Maul's face in the The Lawless and tells him that being replaced, Maul isn't a Sith anymore. With Season 6 introducing the concept of Tyranus already being a Sith Lord before Maul's demise, it seems like Palpatine decided to replace Maul indeed.
Why Palpatine's remarks in the Vader comic? Writer discrepancies, possibly. But also, there's the chance that Palpatine did intend for Maul to be more but had to prematurely replace him with Tyranus for some reason that may be elaborated upon in the future. There's even the possibility that he was either intending to play off Dooku with Maul at some point, but Maul "died" before that could happen, or he was intending to have them serve him together for a time before he disposed of Maul, but Maul was gone before that could happen and Tyranus wasn't suited for the same sort of jobs that Maul was, hence the "loss".
Of course, this is all just speculation in favor of the Count, but it does tick the boxes, for now. Pro-Maul theories here will have a hard time addressing the fact that Dooku became Darth Tyranus even when Maul was alive.
Originally posted by ares834
According to TCW. The Pykes mention they were hired by a man named Darth Tyranus to kill Sifo-dyas and he was killed when Valorum was still Chanceller.
buuut... in ATOC Kenobi specifically states that Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years prior, its also stated that 10 years has passed since TPM so lets say it took Sidious 6 months or so to convert Dooku, the timeline still lines up with Sidious getting a new apprentice AFTER Maul "died"
Originally posted by SunRazer
Because Sidious wasn't ready for his loss, lol. He was considering replacing Maul with Tyranus but hadn't even remotely finalized anything when Maul was suddenly taken from him.
Its hinted at in Plagueis that Sidious would have kept Maul as a silent assassin and just used Dooku as an ally, he had tentatively earmarked Dooku to be the head of the opposition due to his style, status and great skills as an orator before Maul died
Originally posted by relentless1
buuut... in ATOC Kenobi specifically states that Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years prior, its also stated that 10 years has passed since TPM so lets say it took Sidious 6 months or so to convert Dooku, the timeline still lines up with Sidious getting a new apprentice AFTER Maul "died"
It's called a retcon.
And technically, AotC might not be precisely ten years after TPM, just approximately (ie. TPM is late 32BBY, AotC early 22BBY, which I think is true, anyway).
Originally posted by relentless1
Its hinted at in Plagueis that Sidious would have kept Maul as a silent assassin and just used Dooku as an ally, he had tentatively earmarked Dooku to be the head of the opposition due to his style, status and great skills as an orator before Maul died
Wolff showed me one of the new Fact Files which had Sidious looking for Dooku to replace Maul, although I couldn't tell you if that refers to him after or before Maul's demise.
Originally posted by SunRazerYeah I'm looking strictly at Canon here, in which case we don't know the circumstances of Tyranus' induction.
What new information? And yeah, the TCW retcon certainly throws a wrench in the works.
As for what this point is about, fair enough. But then, you either accept Darth Plagueis, where it isn't concrete, but at least Palpatine mused of having Dooku replace Maul, or TCW, where Palpatine christened Dooku as a Darth even before Maul's demise, as if anticipating his loss (perhaps not so soon, but in the future). After all, even in Canon, Palpatine adheres to the policy of only two Sith at once, as he says to Maul's face in the The Lawless and tells him that being replaced, Maul isn't a Sith anymore. With Season 6 introducing the concept of Tyranus already being a Sith Lord before Maul's demise, it seems like Palpatine decided to replace Maul indeed.I don't recall anywhere in Darth Plagueis where Sidious considered replacing Maul, he only seems to decide to take on Dooku as his apprentice after Maul's death, and partially as a result of that event.
That Sidious appears to adhere to the Rule of Two only lending itself to Maul, not Dooku. Fact remains that it is Maul who holds the title of both Darth and apprentice in TPM. Sidious stating post-TPM that he is no longer his apprentice only suggesting that this remained the case until his untimely death. Dooku on the other hand though referred to as "Tyranus" by the Pykes, they know him only as Tyranus, not Lord or Darth (where he is referred to as 'Lord' by the Kaminoans.) So unlike Maul and much like Venamis, he may well have not been proper Sith Lord at this point.
Why Palpatine's remarks in the Vader comic? Writer discrepancies, possibly. But also, there's the chance that Palpatine did intend for Maul to be more but had to prematurely replace him with Tyranus for some reason that may be elaborated upon in the future. There's even the possibility that he was either intending to play off Dooku with Maul at some point, but Maul "died" before that could happen, or he was intending to have them serve him together for a time before he disposed of Maul, but Maul was gone before that could happen and Tyranus wasn't suited for the same sort of jobs that Maul was, hence the "loss".On whose part? More evidence suggests that Dooku becoming a Darth prior to TPM is the discrepancy, given that it's all Canon now, it's arbitrary to decide which is the plot hole and which is not, better to assume none at all.Of course, this is all just speculation in favor of the Count, but it does tick the boxes, for now. Pro-Maul theories here will have a hard time addressing the fact that Dooku became Darth Tyranus even when Maul was alive.
And that doesn't follow on, if prior to his death Sidious had decided to replace Maul with Dooku, that would make Maul expendable, and therefore his death would not have been considered a loss.
But yeah, there remains every possibility that the reverse would have been true, and that it would have been Dooku rather than Maul that got the chop. Certainly it seems a waste to bump off Maul in favour of Dooku, when Dooku himself was ultimately nothing more than a puppet to be inevitably cast aside.
However Sidious is ever the opportunist driven by practicality, not dogma, in that respect I'm not convinced he's particularly devoted to the Rule of Two philosophy. The real reason he eliminated Maul in TCW was being that the latter had become "a rival". If Maul's devotion had been genuine on the other hand, he may well have found a place in the Grand Plan once more.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I'm looking strictly at Canon here, in which case we don't know the circumstances of Tyranus' induction.I don't recall anywhere in Darth Plagueis where Sidious considered replacing Maul, he only seems to decide to take on Dooku as his apprentice after Maul's death, and partially as a result of that event.
He does consider Dooku as an ally throughout the novel, but whether it's as a Sith apprentice is unclear. Though even Plagueis considered Dooku as a backup in case Sidious was somehow lost.
That Sidious appears to adhere to the Rule of Two only lending itself to Maul, not Dooku. Fact remains that it is Maul who holds the title of both Darth and apprentice in TPM. Sidious stating post-TPM that he is no longer his apprentice only suggesting that this remained the case until his untimely death. Dooku on the other hand though referred to as "Tyranus" by the Pykes, they know him only as Tyranus, not Lord or Darth (where he is referred to as 'Lord' by the Kaminoans.) So unlike Maul and much like Venamis, he may well have not been proper Sith Lord at this point.On whose part? More evidence suggests that Dooku becoming a Darth prior to TPM is the discrepancy, given that it's all Canon now, it's arbitrary to decide which is the plot hole and which is not, better to assume none at all.
Dooku just naming himself Tyranus whilst he was a Jedi makes no sense, lol. The comparison with Venamis is valid, though.
And that doesn't follow on, if prior to his death Sidious had decided to replace Maul with Dooku, that would make Maul expendable, and therefore his death would not have been considered a loss.
As I said, he could've planned to dispose of Maul, but not so soon. Dooku would've been a loss if he died before the Clone Wars started, even though Sidious had no long-term plans for him.
However Sidious is ever the opportunist driven by practicality, not dogma, in that respect I'm not convinced he's particularly devoted to the Rule of Two philosophy. The real reason he eliminated Maul in TCW was being that the latter had become "a rival". If Maul's devotion had been genuine on the other hand, he may well have found a place in the Grand Plan once more.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by SunRazerConsidering that as he is killing Plagueis he expressed his intentions to use Maul as his Sith counterpart essentially in Plagueis place, and considering that even in the epilogue (where Palpatine and Dooku meet) Sidious still appears only to be toying with the idea of using him as an apprentice, I find it unlikely he'd decided to replace him. And that's supported by various Legends sources, for example:
He does consider Dooku as an ally throughout the novel, but whether it's as a Sith apprentice is unclear. Though even Plagueis considered Dooku as a backup in case Sidious was somehow lost.
Taken from The Clone Wars Campaign GuideSoon after his departure, though Count Dooku is visited by the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Sidious. The loss of Sith Lord's former apprentice, Darth Maul, motivates Sidious to seek out a new apprentice, a convert who already has the training he needs - and who can be turned to the Dark Side.
Dooku just naming himself Tyranus whilst he was a Jedi makes no sense, lol. The comparison with Venamis is valid, though.And I wasn't at all implying that, evidently he'd defected to the Sith but that doesn't make him a Sith Lord.
As I said, he could've planned to dispose of Maul, but not so soon. Dooku would've been a loss if he died before the Clone Wars started, even though Sidious had no long-term plans for him.Potentially, but as I say arguably Maul is more valuable in the long-term. However ultimately with Anakin in play there were both rendered expendable.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering that as he is killing Plagueis he expressed his intentions to use Maul as his Sith counterpart essentially in Plagueis place, and considering that even in the epilogue (where Palpatine and Dooku meet) Sidious still appears only to be toying with the idea of using him as an apprentice, I find it unlikely he'd decided to replace him.
Sidious contradicts that in a source released a month later, Book of Sith, where he claims that whilst he'd entertain apprentices, he'd never cultivate a successor.
And I wasn't at all implying that, evidently he'd defected to the Sith but that doesn't make him a Sith Lord.
If we're going off Legends, sources imply that Tyranus was immediately a Darth upon defecting. It's noted that he stole the Dark Holocron from the Temple in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus. Dooku going back to the Temple after he left the Order makes little sense and I believe it's stated by sources that he left the Temple forever or something. It seems as though Dooku wiped Kamino from the Jedi records, stole the Dark Holocron, and killed Sifo-Dyas, all in preparation for becoming a Sith Lord, and all of this being around the time that Maul met his demise on Naboo. So it would seem that Sidious had pre-arranged some of this with Dooku already.
EDIT: The AotC Visual Dictionary implies that Dooku became Darth Tyranus as he pledged loyalty to Sidious. There's nothing that implies that he had to go through specific trials as in Maul's case, and sources (including the one you posted above) make note of Dooku being pre-trained, which was part of why Sidious took him in - there wouldn't be a need to cultivate him in the same way as Maul.
Potentially, but as I say arguably Maul is more valuable in the long-term. However ultimately with Anakin in play there were both rendered expendable.
Not necessarily. Maul wasn't who Palpatine needed from AotC-RotS. Agreed on Anakin, though.