Originally posted by Darth Thor
@ Urseumless: Yeah Dooku more than struggled against Skywalker. Just pointing out him fighting defensively isn't proof of that.He fought defensively against Skywalker in "Crisis on Naboo" but that was a pretty even fight.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yeah, what I meant was, that iirc was over the whole fight (pre-Dun Monch) on the defensive, and hadn't a chance to attack succesfully.
You mean he was forced on the defensive? Yeah definitely in that case.
Interestingly though the ROTS script states Anakin forced Kenobi backwards as well. Not that Kenobi voluntarily moved backwards.
It can be hard to tell the difference with combatants who tend to fight defensively anyway against stronger opponents.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You mean he was forced on the defensive? Yeah definitely in that case.Interestingly though the ROTS script states Anakin forced Kenobi backwards as well. Not that Kenobi voluntarily moved backwards.
It can be hard to tell the difference with combatants who tend to fight defensively anyway against stronger opponents.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't know you were part of the Anakin brigade, Freshest.How is Anakin faster and stronger than Yoda or Palpatine, or far more dangerous than them in battle (admittedly, Zonakin might work, but the quote's referring to him in a general sense)? I'm curious to see people's reasoning for this.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because we have multiple sources saying so and no one gives a shit about your, or any of the others here, opinion?
We have RotS and Nick Gillard, to my knowledge, and both of them contradict themselves - RotS also claims Yoda was the most powerful threat the darkness ever faced, and Nick Gillard says that Palpatine's abilities are beyond anything we've ever experienced, as well as having a style in which "you'll never get the better of him". There's also the new quote from the SW website claiming that Sidious can beat any Jedi duelist, which includes Anakin, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, suggesting that Yoda's skills with a lightsaber were unequaled, although that doesn't necessarily pertain to overall lightsaber combat.
There's also Filoni, who isn't worth much, but he suggests that Palpatine is unbeatable in one of the interviews as well.
What else is there giving Anakin supremacy?
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Thats actually stated?
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
This was before Skywalker became enraged.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He's also stated to be faster and stronger than Yoda, and far more dangerous than Palpatine and Yoda.The quotes put him very high up, but there's a limit to how literally you can take them 😬
I'm referring to quotes from Gillard, Palpatine, and the narrator.
So really, out-of-universe, in-universe, and author intent is all on Skywalker's side. 👆
Originally posted by Jmanghan
It said in the AOTC Novel that Dooku struggled against Kenobi as well during the Battle of Geonosis...
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, yeah, he is.I'm referring to quotes from Gillard, Palpatine, and the narrator.
So really, out-of-universe, in-universe, and author intent is all on Skywalker's side. 👆
Who does Palpatine's quote even refer to? He also describes Maul's skills as unparalleled, so there's that.
Out-of-universe? Gillard claims that you can't top Palpatine, Filoni claims that no one can compete with him, and the SW website claims that Sidious is capable of besting any Jedi duelist.
In-universe - I think everyone has those sorts of quotes, lmfao.
The narrator also claims Yoda's the strongest that the dark side has ever faced, IIRC.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Who does Palpatine's quote even refer to? He also describes Maul's skills as unparalleled, so there's that.Out-of-universe? Gillard claims that you can't top Palpatine, Filoni claims that no one can compete with him, and the SW website claims that Sidious is capable of besting any Jedi duelist.
In-universe - I think everyone has those sorts of quotes, lmfao.
The narrator also claims Yoda's the strongest that the dark side has ever faced, IIRC.
You can't top Palpatine because he'll sucker you in, make you think you've won, but then get the upper-hand, like he did against Windu. It's rooted in his character, not his skills. Filoni's comments seem to be of the time period, and Palpatine being *capable* of defeating Skywalker is already established - it's a matter if he can do so for the majority.
Not really.
Skywalker's not a beacon of light in the darkness like Yoda. 😬 In a sense, Skywalker's the greatest servant of the dark side ever known, not the other way around.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine deems Skywalker's abilities greater than any Sith before him.You can't top Palpatine because he'll sucker you in, make you think you've won, but then get the upper-hand, like he did against Windu. It's rooted in his character, not his skills. Filoni's comments seem to be of the time period, and Palpatine being *capable* of defeating Skywalker is already established - it's a matter if he can do so for the majority.
Not really.
Skywalker's not a beacon of light in the darkness like Yoda. 😬 In a sense, Skywalker's the greatest servant of the dark side ever known, not the other way around.
1. As I said, he deemed Maul's skills unparalleled as well, but that's untrue.
2. It seems like you can't beat him in general was his point. Fair enough on the majority thing, but obviously, I support that.
3. It says the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Anakin's fought the darkness before.
With respects to sheer skill, I don't think Anakin is above or on par with Yoda and Palpatine. He might be physically stronger than Yoda, though, based on his novel performance against Dooku (even if it's by far the most extreme depiction of the fight). Speed? Not sure about that. He seemed pretty overwhelmed by how fast Palpatine was in the novel. Otherwise, one would have to subscribe to the beginning part about him being the fastest, too.
Originally posted by NephthysAbsolute insanity.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. As I said, he deemed Maul's skills unparalleled as well, but that's untrue.2. It seems like you can't beat him in general was his point. Fair enough on the majority thing, but obviously, I support that.
3. It says the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Anakin's fought the darkness before.
With respects to sheer skill, I don't think Anakin is above or on par with Yoda and Palpatine. He might be physically stronger than Yoda, though, based on his novel performance against Dooku (even if it's by far the most extreme depiction of the fight). Speed? Not sure about that. He seemed pretty overwhelmed by how fast Palpatine was in the novel. Otherwise, one would have to subscribe to the beginning part about him being the fastest, too.
2. Well yeah, you can't beat him in general *because* of the reasons listed. Otherwise, Windu wouldn't have had Palpatine on the ground.
3. Do you not understand my point? Yoda is the supreme master of the light side and the greatest foe of the Sith. Skywalker has fought the darkness, sure, but he was likened moreso to a spinning tornado than a beacon of purity. Hell, all of Skywalker's encounters with the dark side have primarily been a scam, orchestrated by the true Dark Lord to lead him on his path to join the Sith. Nearly everything Skywalker has done has benefited Palpatine and the dark side. And by the time the quote was made, Skywalker was honestly the greatest servant of the dark side, not foe, like I pointed out.
Well then you're ignoring canonical quotes due to your preconceived biases, and frankly I can't respect that and will have to accept your concession. Skywalker seemed to vanish in and out of existence at times in his fight against Dooku, by the way. Also, he followed the fight between Palpatine and Windu just fine through the Force. Eyes are limiting and deceiving.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1. Can you quote me?
I've asked the person who told me about it to give me the quote.
2. Well yeah, you can't beat him in general *because* of the reasons listed. Otherwise, Windu wouldn't have had Palpatine on the ground.
That wasn't even an instance of Palpatine drawing Windu in and then defeating him with a lightsaber. 😬
3. Do you not understand my point? Yoda is the supreme master of the light side and the greatest foe of the Sith. Skywalker has fought the darkness, sure, but he was likened moreso to a spinning tornado than a beacon of purity. Hell, all of Skywalker's encounters with the dark side have primarily been a scam, orchestrated by the true Dark Lord to lead him on his path to join the Sith. Nearly everything Skywalker has done has benefited Palpatine and the dark side. And by the time the quote was made, Skywalker was honestly the greatest servant of the dark side, not foe, like I pointed out.
I'd argue this further, but then I remembered that the quote comes from RotS, and I recall how Stover writes about the darkness in Anakin's context.
Well then you're ignoring canonical quotes due to your preconceived biases, and frankly I can't respect that and will have to accept your concession. Skywalker seemed to vanish in and out of existence at times in his fight against Dooku, by the way. Also, he followed the fight between Palpatine and Windu just fine through the Force. Eyes are limiting and deceiving.
You're not accepting anyone's concession here. I'm one of Anakin's strongest supporters on this forum, lmao.
As I've asked already, where are the quotes for Anakin being the most skilled ever? In fact, what was the quote that specifically noted Anakin being more skilled than Dooku? You haven't shown me that either.
On the other hand:
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
Originally posted by SunRazer
That wasn't even an instance of Palpatine drawing Windu in and then defeating him with a lightsaber. :
As I've asked already, where are the quotes for Anakin being the most skilled ever? In fact, what was the quote that specifically noted Anakin being more skilled than Dooku? You haven't shown me that either.
"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."
The above solidifies Skywalker's placement as the most skilled and, in particular, better than Dooku.
On the other hand:
Which one is it?
I'm not disputing some sources highlight them as better than Anakin, but those closest to the primary source material deem Skywalker greater.
Anyway, can you provide me a scan so I can see all proper context behind the quote?
---
Recognize the following fact:
This discussion is rooted in Skywalker vs Dooku.
All of your examples of potential candidates greater than Skywalker are other tier 9 duelists.
This is consistent with Gillard stating that one tier 9 duelist can beat another based on circumstance.
However, nothing you have provided suggests Dooku, a mere tier 8 duelist, is comparable with Skywalker.
In contrast, I've presented evidence on why Skywalker might be better than even Palpatine, let alone Dooku.
tl;dr: You're wrong, I'm right. 😉