Cassandra Nova vs WBH

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Excellent, thanks for that post.

If I post something working against WWH, and it has a 100% success rate (don't forget, WWH/WBH have very few showings), that would then be WWH/WBH's average.

Thus, as WWH/WBH >>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Hulk etc (as you kindly posted), no amount of Savage Hulk/Gray Hulk etc scans would be needed, correct?

Because like you said - we take the averages, and WWH/WBH are vastly superior to any other Hulk. So if something works against WWH, and has never failed against WWH in all of his showings (lol), Savage Hulk feats are useless.

Trap card, activated.

What I'm telling you is all of Hulk fts are applicable. No exemptions here since it is one of the same character. Example, telepathy worked on Superman before but he has showings where he is highly immune to it. I'm not going to take that away from him because one writer think otherwise. Writers have different perspective of the characters but we don't take what that character has accomplished because of this...especially when we know this form is more powerful. I wouldn't say magic would affect Sun Dipped Superman the same way it would affect normal Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
What I'm telling you is all of Hulk fts are applicable. No exemptions here since it is one of the same character. Example, telepathy worked on Superman before but he has showings where he is highly immune to it. I'm not going to take that away from him because one writer think otherwise. Writers have different perspective of the characters but we don't take what that character has accomplished because of this...especially when we know this form is more powerful. I wouldn't say magic would affect Sun Dipped Superman the same way it would affect normal Superman.

But you have posted a mod ruling saying that WWH>>>>>>>Savage. (which, I think we can all agree on).

If it works every time on WWH, then there's no point posting Savage feats. Because WWH's AVERAGE shows that it works on him, and he is >>>>>> Savage.

For example, if say Spiderman managed to web WWH up and immobilise him (not saying it's true, but just as an example), then WWH is >>> Savage, so any feats of Savage breaking out are null and void. This is less true for physical attacks, obv, but I am thinking exotic here (always am!)

Especially if it was an exotic attack that worked 100% of the time against WBH/WWH.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you have posted a mod ruling saying that WWH>>>>>>>Savage. (which, I think we can all agree on).

If it works every time on WWH, then there's no point posting Savage feats. Because WWH's AVERAGE shows that it works on him, and he is >>>>>> Savage.

For example, if say Spiderman managed to web WWH up and immobilise him (not saying it's true, but just as an example), then WWH is >>> Savage, so any feats of Savage breaking out are null and void. This is less true for physical attacks, obv, but I am thinking exotic here (always am!)

Especially if it was an exotic attack that worked 100% of the time against WBH/WWH.

What has worked on WWH that didn't work on Savage? I think you want to say something worked on WBH but didn't work on Indestructible Hulk. Is that what you are wanting to say? Just say it Dark.

Originally posted by carver9
What has worked on WWH that didn't work on Savage? I think you want to say something worked on WBH but didn't work on Indestructible Hulk. Is that what you are wanting to say? Just say it Dark.

Oh the timestop?

Nahh.

Unless....can Cassandra Nova timestop? Has DS inadvertently found something that no one else has? Egads!

But it's not that.

I'm just asking, because you obviously know Hulk way better than I. I (or anyone else) don't want to post something, only for you to use an illogical leap of logic to argue against it.

WBH > WWH >>>>>>>>Savage, etc. As you yourself have posted, the more pissed Hulk is, the more powerful/resistant/stronger he is - and until WBH happened, WWH was THE angriest he had ever been.

If you flip-flop, and engage in mental gymnastics just to prove your point, then nobody will want a part of this discussion. But if you use a weaker Hulk to argue against a stronger Hulk's feats, than we cannot continue. Because that isn't using logic at all, and just devolves into a shouting match.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh the timestop?

Nahh.

Unless....can Cassandra Nova timestop? Has DS inadvertently found something that no one else has? Egads!

But it's not that.

I'm just asking, because you obviously know Hulk way better than I. I (or anyone else) don't want to post something, only for you to use an illogical leap of logic to argue against it.

WBH > WWH >>>>>>>>Savage, etc. As you yourself have posted, the more pissed Hulk is, the more powerful/resistant/stronger he is - and until WBH happened, WWH was THE angriest he had ever been.

If you flip-flop, and engage in mental gymnastics just to prove your point, then nobody will want a part of this discussion. But if you use a weaker Hulk to argue against a stronger Hulk's feats, than we cannot continue. Because that isn't using logic at all, and just devolves into a shouting match.

If I use a weaker Hulk resisting something, like, let's say, resisting antimatter... are you saying that I can't use that showing for a more powerful Hulk? If not, please give an example.

Originally posted by carver9
If I use a weaker Hulk resisting something, like, let's say, resisting antimatter... are you saying that I can't use that showing for a more powerful Hulk? If not, please give an example.

No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.

Don't change the topic, junior member.

We were celebrating dmills' return.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.

Aaahhhhh, that makes sense.

So let's do the BZ.

Originally posted by krisblaze
So let's do the BZ.

Or you can debate in the thread I made. It's simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.

I'd actually have to disagree with that one DS. If it's repeatedly made clear that a character is more powerful than ever and then has a poorer performance against something that he's done well against in the past, to me that screams low showing/PIS. By the same token, Supes ramming strait through Soulfire Darkseid's body doesn't negate all the times Supes COULDN'T do that kind of thing and lower the bar on Soulfire DS's perceived durability. If Grey Hulk's done well against anti-matter and WWH/WBH is more powerful than obviously WWH/WBH SHOULD do better even better and any lower showing should be recognized as either the Plot in play or a writer/editor who didn't do their homework.

Just my two cents...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'd actually have to disagree with that one DS. If it's repeatedly made clear that a character is more powerful than ever and then has a poorer performance against something that he's done well against in the past, to me that screams low showing/PIS. By the same token, Supes ramming strait through Soulfire Darkseid's body doesn't negate all the times Supes COULDN'T do that kind of thing and lower the bar on Soulfire DS's perceived durability. If Grey Hulk's done well against anti-matter and WWH/WBH is more powerful than obviously WWH/WBH SHOULD do better even better and any lower showing should be recognized as either the Plot in play or a writer/editor who didn't do their homework.

Just my two cents...

Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage.

This is why it is simpler to keep things to what is named. If facing WBH, keep it to WBH. He should be well placed with his feats. If facing WWH, keep it to WWH.

Otherwise, you get this clustermess lol.

Do you rely on statements, or feats? Even Gray Hulk has the 'feat' of smashing an asteroid 2x the size of Earth, with his fists alone, in a single panel - no energy waves, no chain reaction, just Hulk smash. Is he 2x as strong as the Worldbreaker? As WWH?

But, statement! WWH is the angriest he has ever been! Etc etc.

Was waiting for you to show up, btw. Knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

Originally posted by carver9
Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

But Pak is the same writer for both WWH AND WBH - so does that not make him gospel?

Are you saying that the Hulk as written by Pak is...special? That in Pak's mind and interpretation, he would be susceptible to this exotic attack (in our example, antimatter)?

Because if so, then by using WBH, you are using a Hulk that, on panel, IS susceptible, and you cannot hand wave it away.

Edit: Btw, this mess comes around because of your (and others, not just you) insistence that 'Hulk is Hulk'.

But he is obv NOT. Hence, the varying power levels.

Originally posted by carver9
Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

Stop using Superman as a HUMAN SHIELD!!!!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!!!

😠 😠 😠

Essentially, you, carver, have attempted to dodge and evade Kris.

The challenge was WBH vs Cassie in a BZ. The point was to show that being the strongest there is, isn't the be-all and end-all.

You've now changed it, to a thread with BFR off, and it is now the Hulk in his entire history vs Cassie Nova - where every loss is chalked down to PIS, because you have a scan older than my grandma from back in the 60s, a writer said XYZ, and we all know that 'Hulk has had several upgrades since then'. If you don't want to face him in a BZ, then just say. Stop changing things just to suit you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage.

This is why it is simpler to keep things to what is named. If facing WBH, keep it to WBH. He should be well placed with his feats. If facing WWH, keep it to WWH.

Otherwise, you get this clustermess lol.

Do you rely on statements, or feats? Even Gray Hulk has the 'feat' of smashing an asteroid 2x the size of Earth, with his fists alone, in a single panel - no energy waves, no chain reaction, just Hulk smash. Is he 2x as strong as the Worldbreaker? As WWH?

But, statement! WWH is the angriest he has ever been! Etc etc.

Was waiting for you to show up, btw. Knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

No prob. As always I'm only popping in for a bit but I'm happy to at least throw my stance on the matter into the mix.

While I understand why it seems easier to simply restrict WWH/WBH solely to what was shown in those arcs, IMO doing so would unfair to the character. Hulk has a LONG history and an incredibly impressive list of feats to his credit, you can't expect a writer to shoehorn equivalent top end feats of every sort into an arc when he's got deadlines to meet, an ENJOYABLE story to finish, and an editor to appease. If the whole point of the arc is that "Character A" is more powerful than ever, then obviously the character's top end feats from previous arcs should be considered viable for the character in question. A character not preforming up to previously established levels is the very definition of PIS/SMvF.

Honestly I'm not much of a fan of flat character distinctions in regards to feats. I mean obviously there will be those times when such a thing is appropriate(IE no one should ever try to use Grey Hulk's intelligence feats for Savage Hulk), but IMO those things should be matters that are handled within the debate and decided by logic and common sense rather than be totally curtailed from being discussed. IMO, the rules should exist to make sure all characters are held up to the same standards, not to determine the limits of individual characters.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No prob. As always I'm only popping in for a bit I'm happy to at least throw my stance on the matter into the mix.

While I understand why it seems easier to simply restrict WWH/WBH solely to what was shown in those arcs, IMO doing so would unfair to the character. Hulk has a LONG history and an incredibly impressive list of feats to his credit, you can't expect a writer to shoehorn equivalent top end feats of every sort into an arc when he's got deadlines to meet, an ENJOYABLE story to finish, and an editor to appease. If the whole point of the arc is that "Character A" is more powerful than ever, then obviously the character's top end feats from previous arcs should be considered viable for the character in question. A character not preforming up to previously established levels is the very definition of PIS/SMvF.

Honestly I'm not much of a fan of flat character distinctions in regards to feats. I mean obviously there will be those times when such a thing is appropriate(IE no one should ever try to use Grey Hulk's intelligence feats for Savage Hulk), but IMO those things should be matters that are handled within the debate and decided by logic and common sense rather than be totally curtailed from being discussed. IMO, the rules should exist to make sure all characters are held up to the same standards, not to determine the limits of individual characters.

In that case, as Superman was mentioned (not by me, btw...):

If a thread specifies OWAW Superman, can Abhi take the highest highs of 'normal' Superman, and exponentially draw the line? After all, by logic and common sense, if 'normal' Superman can do XYZ, then OWAW Supes should be capable of the same to the nth degree.

So imagine abhi gleefully rubbing his hands, and scan dumping normal Supes and his resistance to magic/telepathy/Kryptonite. The highest ever speed feats and strength feats, and then claiming that OWAW has that and more.

DoS Doomsday took an energy blast that tore a hole in reality. H/P Doomsday, therefore, can tank....I dunno, whatever it is but incredibly amped, lol.

Kuurth has, on paper, both the enchantments of Cyttorrak AND the Serpent. Am I allowed to take Juggy's highest showings, apply it to him?

Sodom Yat, has, on paper (lol), Kryptonian level physicals AND a GL ring AND the Ion entity. Shall I stack them up on each other, or am I restricted to what was actually shown on panel by the character?

Beast is another good example. On paper, he has had several upgrades. So shall I take his highest showings back when he was human/ape level, and draw a line upwards? Or am I forced to actually use what is depicted?

Writers and artists don't care for these battleboards, lol. They don't care that back in 1994, character XYZ performed such and such a feat, so they should be able to do that same feat but better.

We care. and we have the distinctions, however. And if a thread specifies WBH, then it should be WBH. Not using Savage feats, especially if it is contradicted by WWH feats, say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In that case, as Superman was mentioned (not by me, btw...):

If a thread specifies OWAW Superman, can Abhi take the highest highs of 'normal' Superman, and exponentially draw the line? After all, by logic and common sense, if 'normal' Superman can do XYZ, then OWAW Supes should be capable of the same to the nth degree.

So imagine abhi gleefully rubbing his hands, and scan dumping normal Supes and his resistance to magic/telepathy/Kryptonite. The highest ever speed feats and strength feats, and then claiming that OWAW has that and more.

DoS Doomsday took an energy blast that tore a hole in reality. H/P Doomsday, therefore, can tank....I dunno, whatever it is but incredibly amped, lol.

Kuurth has, on paper, both the enchantments of Cyttorrak AND the Serpent. Am I allowed to take Juggy's highest showings, apply it to him?

Sodom Yat, has, on paper (lol), Kryptonian level physicals AND a GL ring AND the Ion entity. Shall I stack them up on each other, or am I restricted to what was actually shown on panel by the character?

Beast is another good example. On paper, he has had several upgrades. So shall I take his highest showings back when he was human/ape level, and draw a line upwards? Or am I forced to actually use what is depicted?

Writers and artists don't care for these battleboards, lol. They don't care that back in 1994, character XYZ performed such and such a feat, so they should be able to do that same feat but better.

We care. and we have the distinctions, however. And if a thread specifies WBH, then it should be WBH. Not using Savage feats, especially if it is contradicted by WWH feats, say.

Actually, yes... there's not a single logical reason that Abhi shouldn't be able to credit OWAW Supes with reg Supes's feats. Now I'm sure he and I would disagree on just where to draw the line on how much better OWAW Supes was than normal, but simply saying that he's better is no where close to an unreasonable claim. I'm not saying that there should be any kind of specific multiplier applied to the feats of weaker versions of Hulk(or Supes) and then credited to WWH/WBH(or OWAW Supes), just that better feats should be possible. The specifics of HOW MUCH better is subject to debate, but using the prior feat as a baseline... I see nothing wrong with that unless the original feat itself is for some reason invalid.

Doomsday... I'd say possibly for HP DD, but no for DOS. First of all, it wasn't DOS DD that tanked that blast, it was DD from the one shot. Now I know DOS chronologically came out after the one shot but hear me out. DD is an ultra evolved kryptonian and I believe there's been at least 1 or 2 references to him absorbing solar energy like Supes. When he came out of the ground in DOS he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years(possibly hundred of thousands, can't remember specifics) after being "killed" and having his solar reserves totally depleted and therefor was not really the same guy who took that blast. There's even evidence to support this in the DOS arc in the form of his bone protrusions(that he had during the one shot) not being pronounced while he was covered by the suit but growing as the suit was destroyed. And since the whole arc took place over the course of less than a day, it seems unreasonable to me to assume he had ever gotten back up to his previous level of power without a specific on panel acknowledgement that he'd done so. Now if it had been specifically established at some point that he came out of the ground even more powerful than he was against the GL corps it would likely change my opinion, but as far as I know it hasn't been so I personally don't consider feats from the one shot as being valid for DOS DD.

Not trying to sidetrack the discussion with all that, it's just something that I've been wanting to put out there for a while when I see people discussion the one shot and DOS.

Kuurth... absolutely. No logical reason why he'd be any less powerful.

Yat is a totally different character than other Daxamites and GLs. Superman and Hal are the elite among their kind so it doesn't make sense to assume Yat is the equal of either, just as it doesn't make sense to assume that a random human who get's his strength tripled will be 3x stronger than Captain America. But as far as the basic stuff sure. No reason to assume that a typical sword would cut him or that he can't fly/create a cube construct even if he's never been in a situation that has those events happen.

Beast... oh I love the guy but he suffers from the "Worf effect" even more the Worf does. At this point the name should really be changed to the "Beast effect" lol. Anyway, as far as his actual feats go sure. If he could throw a car and do a "ground pound" as an ape than he should def be able to repeat those feats as a Cat if the form is acknowledged as being more powerful. That's not to say that any upper limit beyond those feats should be guessed at without some proper indication, but like the OWAW Supes stuff those feats should be considered the minimum of what he's capable of.

Yes but the "we care more than they do" sword cuts both ways on this one. Debates on this board aren't determined strictly by the issue that came out last week, the rules in regards to PIS and full capacity exist BECAUSE we care more about the established history of the characters than the average writer will. And as long as those rules and standards are in play for characters on this board, they should apply equally to Hulk and protect him just as much as they do anyone else.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage.