He's definitely more agile than Vader. Wasn't Ahsoka jumping all around him? Not to mention Mace is tier 9 as a combatant, whereas I'm not sure Vader belongs there.
However, Vader's edge against Mace in Canon in the Force might be quite a bit larger than it was in Canon. Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.
Originally posted by SunRazerDon't you have Windu on level with Dooku? I wonder why you pay Gillard attention when he has the Count on tier 8. mmm
He's definitely more agile than Vader. Wasn't Ahsoka jumping all around him? Not to mention Mace is tier 9 as a combatant, whereas I'm not sure Vader belongs there.However, Vader's edge against Mace in Canon in the Force might be quite a bit larger than it was in Canon. Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As in Mace > Dooku? Or the reverse? But I was talking about Legends anyway.
This is Canon only and I was using Canon Mace.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong. 🙁
What are you talking about? He's in the same tier as Sidious per Gillard, and since the amp thing doesn't exist if we're not taking the RotS novel, then Mace did contend with Sidious.
The only defense is that, of course, Sidious may have held back to varying degrees.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. **** Gillard.2. Various sources, including the Ultimate Star Wars, say Windu only "appeared" to win.
3. Vaapad as neither been or not been confirmed to exist in Canon.
1. You were bringing him up just a moment ago 😬
Anyway, he wrote the fights. You can't dismiss him because you don't like him, lol.
2. That doesn't directly mean that Mace didn't win; it leaves it open for discussion. Besides, I never said Mace beat Sidious. I said he could contend, which he did.
3. What does that have to do with my point?
1. To use your own poison against you.
And seeing as he's not working on Canon moving forward, and his word is not binding, I canz. 🙂
2. Against an opponent who may or may not have been holding back.
3. Are you daft? You said that Vaapad does not exist in Canon, that hasn't been confirmed by any source.
On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.
And using Gillard's quotes isn't a best idea at the moment. Anyway, of we are using outdated quotes of Gillard, then we should use outdated quotes of Lucas at first place. And Vader again will be just a shadow of his former self.
Originally posted by McP
Just like he ragdolled Obi-Wan and Ahsoka?And using Gillard's quotes isn't a best idea at the moment. Anyway, of we are using outdated quotes of Gillard, then we should use outdated quotes of Lucas at first place. And Vader again will be just a shadow of his former self.
The situation wasn't sour for him in either of those situations.
What's wrong with Gillard's quotes?
And Vader being a shadow of his former self in lightsaber combat is entirely possible now. Not that Gillard or Lucas ever said that.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. To use your own poison against you.And seeing as he's not working on Canon moving forward, and his word is not binding, I canz. 🙂
2. Against an opponent who may or may not have been holding back.
3. Are you daft? You said that Vaapad does not exist in Canon, that hasn't been confirmed by any source.
On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it.
1. Didn't hear a legitimate reason there.
2. To unspecified extents. Though even holistically, Mace is in Yoda and Sidious' league.
3. I didn't say that. I said an amp isn't suggested anywhere, which it isn't. Unless you can prove that such an amp exists, then, well, it doesn't. Simple.
4. If you're dismissing Gillard quotes for no reason, I can do the same to the same show that has Anakin struggle with Senators 😆
1. Read again.
2. Nah.
3. You said exactly that, and just said it again. Which is an argument from ignorance.
4. Because Gillard has the same authority as a Canon work. 😬
I am dismissing Gillard's word because I've no reason to assume they are binding, and because it doesn't align with existing continuity.
1. So your interpretation of what's good or appropriate for Canon, and because his word isn't binding (nobody's is). As I said, you need something stronger than that.
2. Yeah. He has a few quotes labelling him as the Order's best, and he's in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious per Gillard.
3. It's not an argument for ignorance. It's up to you to prove that there was an amp. Otherwise, what reason would I have to believe such a thing exists? You yourself said that the novel doesn't count unless it aligns with the films - which doesn't depict any sort of amplification or anything.
4. A Canon work that occasionally brings in things that aren't consistent with any other SW media?
Gillard wrote the film fights, which form the entire basis for canon. The fact that his stances are supported by the RotS novel means that Lucas, Stover and Gillard are all aligned on certain facts which you're refusing to accept because you don't think they're binding. That's too bad for you.
I mean, at the very least, there should be something to the contrary in order for you to make an argument against such a stance (or ignore it). And I'm not seeing anything to the contrary here. What exactly is questionable about this? I'm not saying it's irrevocable, but it at least shifts the burden of proof onto the opposition.
1. No I don't, it's not Canon and he has no say, authority or involvement in ongoing Canon (unlike say Filoni, or Pablo Hidalgo). So why should I take his word over what I'm seeing on screen?
2. So he's better than Yoda?
3. It is, you've proposed a false dilemma, or rather:
If a proposition has not been proved, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.
--(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)
My stance is that the facts of that fight have not been confirmed, and in particular we do not know whether or not Vaapad is in play. Therefore we cannot assume that it was not and that therefore Mace legitimately contended with Sidious.
4. A cheap, tacky excuse. And I have no idea why you are falling back on Lucas and the RotS novel, who state that Vaapad was in fact in play. And I did provide alternative evidence:
Originally posted by BeniboyblingTo which I'd add that he was also unable to push back Maul, despite having Secura for back up.
On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. No I don't, its not Canon and he has no say, authority or involvement in ongoing Canon (unlike say Filoni, or Pablo Hidalgo). So why should I take his word over what I'm seeing on screen?2. So he's better than Yoda?
3. It is, you've proposed a false dilemma, or rather:
If a proposition has not been proved, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.
--(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)
My stance is that the facts of that fight have not been confirmed, and in particular we do not know whether or not Vaapad is in play. Therefore we cannot assume that it was not and that therefore Mace legitimately contended with Sidious.
4. A cheap, tacky excuse. And I have no idea why you are falling back on Lucas and the RotS novel, who state that Vaapad was in fact in play. And I did provide alternative evidence:To which I'd add that he was also unable to push back Maul, despite having Secura for back up.
1. Maybe because what you're seeing on screen was done by him?
2. Didn't say that. But he has a few quotes suggesting that, which nevertheless denotes an extremely high level of skill. And again, Gillard suggests he's on their level.
Talzin's fight against Mace seemed to be mostly comrprised strength contests and wild swings that he dodged.
3. There is no proposition. I'm not proposing anything other than Mace contending with Sidious, which I hope you can prove for yourself. It's not an argument of ignorance to deduce that based solely on the film and website. The entire notion of Vaapad's properties come from Legends sources to begin with.
4. Even if you think it's cheap, what makes Talzin so unskilled? Aren't you one of those who defends her SoD #4 showing? And then there's the stuff I said above.
As for the Maul feat, who said he was unable to push back Maul? One still-motion panel depiction of the fight?
Although if you want to take "current/new material" over older ones, then that's fine. That means I know I can wank Dooku in discussions with you 🙂