Canon Darth Vader Runs The Canon Duo Gauntlet

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Maybe because what you're seeing on screen was done by him?

2. Didn't say that. But he has a few quotes suggesting that, which nevertheless denotes an extremely high level of skill. And again, Gillard suggests he's on their level.

Talzin's fight against Mace seemed to be mostly comrprised strength contests and wild swings that he dodged.

3. There is no proposition. I'm not proposing anything other than Mace contending with Sidious, which I hope you can prove for yourself. It's not an argument of ignorance to deduce that based solely on the film and website. The entire notion of Vaapad's properties come from Legends sources to begin with.

4. Even if you think it's cheap, what makes Talzin so unskilled? Aren't you one of those who defends her SoD #4 showing? And then there's the stuff I said above.

As for the Maul feat, who said he was unable to push back Maul? One still-motion panel depiction of the fight?

Although if you want to take "current/new material" over older ones, then that's fine. That means I know I can wank Dooku in discussions with you 🙂

2. But unless you take the quote literally, does not prove he is their peer.

3. "It's not a proposition, I'm just making a proposition!" You really are daft aren't you?

4. She's clearly nowhere near as skilled as Sidious, it doesn't take a genius to work that out. And in relation to tanking Sidious' lightning, not her ineptitude with a blade. On top of that Sidious is more powerful and therefore likely more forceful a combatant, and yet Talzin's flailings have her effortlessly batting aside Windu's attack, and forced him to rapidly backpedal.

Yet in Revenge of the Sith he meets Sidious' strength head on:

Evidently something has changed. And it's not an onset of arthiritis.

And as for his fight with Maul, in that one panel he is depicted kicking Secura in the face while simultaneously blocking Windu's attack, evidently he wasn't having too hard a time of it. Which he should have been if Windu is as powerful as you claim.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. And is now open to viewer intepretation. 🙂

If you're applying that here, then it'd only be fair to apply that to Vader's quote in LotS.

2. But unless you take the quote literally, does not prove he is their peer.

I didn't say Mace was Yoda's peer. He evidently isn't. But he's in the same tier.

3. "It's not a proposition, I'm just making a proposition!" You really are daft aren't you?

Not daft enough to fail to recognize that my proposition was, as I said, Mace contending with Sidious.

From a Canon-only standpoint, please tell me where there's any possibility of an amplification. The entire notion of an amp is based on Legends material, according to you.

4. She's clearly nowhere near as skilled as Sidious, it doesn't take a genius to work that out.

We have absolutely no conception of Talzin's skill other than her inferiority to Sidious.

And in relation to tanking Sidious' lightning, not her ineptitude with a blade. On top of that Sidious is more powerful and therefore likely more forceful a combatant, and yet Talzin's flailings have her effortlessly batting aside Windu's attack, and forced him to rapidly backpedal.

Yet in Revenge of the Sith he meets Sidious' strength head on:

Evidently something has changed. And it's not an onset of arthiritis.

Well, you tend not to be able to dodge so many strikes in consecutivity unless you're a lot better than your opponent.

Besides, you cited Talzin's strength, which is related to Force augmentation, not blade skill. So Mace struggling briefly against her power attacks is hardly indicative of anything, when her Force power is right up there with Sidious.

There's also a lot of other TCW discrepancies with continuity, even in Canon. So that's worth mentioning.

And as for his fight with Maul, in that one panel he is depicted kicking Secura in the face while simultaneously blocking Windu's attack, evidently he wasn't having too hard a time of it. Which he should have been if Windu is as powerful as you claim.

It's not evidence that he wasn't having a hard time of it at all.

In the RotS novel, Dooku's getting his ass handed to him by Anakin alone, yet he still manages to incapacitate Obi-Wan whilst fending off Anakin when the fight reaches its climax. A mere snap-shot of a fight isn't an accurate representation of anything of the sort. In desperate, critical moments, characters are fully capable of holding off somebody stronger than them long enough for them to dispose of a weak link.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you're applying that here, then it'd only be fair to apply that to Vader's quote in LotS.

I didn't say Mace was Yoda's peer. He evidently isn't. But he's in the same tier.

Essentially we have a collection of quotes that if taken literally would mean Windu > Yoda, but instead you've decided to take it as proof they are in the same tier, but that's an arbitrary half measure. You either accept what it says, or don't.

Not daft enough to fail to recognize that my proposition was, as I said, Mace contending with Sidious.

From a Canon-only standpoint, please tell me where there's any possibility of an amplification. The entire notion of an amp is based on Legends material, according to you.

We have absolutely no conception of Talzin's skill other than her inferiority to Sidious.

Well, you tend not to be able to dodge so many strikes in consecutivity unless you're a lot better than your opponent.

Besides, you cited Talzin's strength, which is related to Force augmentation, not blade skill. So Mace struggling briefly against her power attacks is hardly indicative of anything, when her Force power is right up there with Sidious.

There's also a lot of other TCW discrepancies with continuity, even in Canon. So that's worth mentioning.

It's not evidence that he wasn't having a hard time of it at all.

In the RotS novel, Dooku's getting his ass handed to him by Anakin alone, yet he still manages to incapacitate Obi-Wan whilst fending off Anakin when the fight reaches its climax. A mere snap-shot of a fight isn't an accurate representation of anything of the sort. In desperate, critical moments, characters are fully capable of holding off somebody stronger than them long enough for them to dispose of a weak link.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK. 😕

Which isn't stated anywhere either.

Essentially we have a collection of quotes that if taken literally would mean Windu > Yoda, but instead you've decided to take it as proof they are in the same tier, but that's an arbitrary half measure. You either accept what it says, or don't.

I can take what it says and make my own judgment.

And it's stated by Gillard.

Is that what you meant? I thought your point was that he could do better cartwheels.

Then I'm not sure why you're trying to mock me for saying that I'm not making a proposition, given that I explicitly noted the exception of proposing Mace's contention with Sidious.

Why from a Canon-only standpoint? The point is that Legends sources introduced the concept of Vaapad, a concept that we don't know whether or not has been carried over into Canon. However as long as there remains the possibility that is has, we cannot assume it hasn't.

Because this is a Canon only thread. We're only including Canon sources.

Only if your a returd, but regardless Sheev's superiority to her is my point anyway.

There's no measure of her skill anywhere other than blatant inferiority to Sheev.

Or because they are flailing about haphazardly.

TCW's crappy animation, probably. But if it's just unskilled flailing, then you're only giving me more of a reason to call it PIS. Why would any unskilled opponent challenge Mace?

And yet he handled Sidious' strength just fine in RotS, that's the ****ing point lmao. Windu's ability to contend with Sidious reflecting more than just blade skill, but comparative Force augmentation as well, obviously.

From a Canon only standpoint, it'd seem like he simply can do that. With Nick Gillard's tier 9 and his accolades and all.

Although Mace's other saber showings as of yet are rather lackluster, it seems.

No it's not.

Yes, it ****ing is LMAO. We have Dooku and Anakin fighting evenly just months after AotC, and Dooku being about even or even superior to Obi-Wan + Anakin just months before RotS.

Fair, but Anakin was not a Yoda-tier opponent, but when he levelled up Dooku got smashed.

Does Canon Drallig have anything to his merit? Because as far as Canon only goes, Anakin's feats, particularly against Dooku and Drallig, are rather diminished.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Does Canon Drallig have anything to his merit? Because as far as Canon only goes, Anakin's feats, particularly against Dooku and Drallig, are rather diminished.

Naw, he's no longer the Jedi Battlemaster, no longer having been personally trained by Yoda, etc.

He's just the head of the Temple Guard and a lightsaber instructor.

Pitiful. Canon Anakin might be in deep shit indeed.

Why I'm sticking by Legends being superior to Canon in just about everything. Minus like...2 exceptions.

Well, Canon still confirms that Anakin > Dooku or Anakin = Dooku, and the case for the former is tangibly more persuasive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can take what it says and make my own judgment.

And it's stated by Gillard.

Then I'm not sure why you're trying to mock me for saying that I'm not making a proposition, given that I [b]explicitly noted the exception of proposing Mace's contention with Sidious.[/b]

Because this is a Canon only thread. We're only including Canon sources.

There's no measure of her skill anywhere other than blatant inferiority to Sheev.

TCW's crappy animation, probably. But if it's just unskilled flailing, then you're only giving me more of a reason to call it PIS. Why would any unskilled opponent challenge Mace?

From a Canon only standpoint, it'd seem like he simply can do that. With Nick Gillard's tier 9 and his accolades and all.

Although Mace's other saber showings as of yet are rather lackluster, it seems.

Regardless, that's not a response to the evidence that he actually cannot.

Yes, it ****ing is LMAO. We have Dooku and Anakin fighting evenly just months after AotC, and Dooku being about even or even superior to Obi-Wan + Anakin just months before RotS.

Does Canon Drallig have anything to his merit? Because as far as Canon only goes, Anakin's feats, particularly against Dooku and Drallig, are rather diminished.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
]The fact the fights with no technique is also one.

Because she's far more powerful? I thought the inference would be obvious. Talzin is a unskilled duelist, but the sheer power behind her blows makes her overpowering all the same.

An unskilled duelist shouldn't be making Mace dodge at all.

Anyway, I watched the fight again and your argument for augmentation is also flawed since Talzin pushing Mace back is a one-off, and that only happened after a brief saberlock. After that, Mace pushes Talzin back once following a brief saberlock, and in two other instances, they're evenly matched in a saberlock (the first and last saberlocks, for reference).

Citing an out-of-context example isn't going to do you any favors. Mace is clearly capable of contending with Talzin's augmented strength. I mean, I could also post an out-of-context GIF of Dooku pushing back Anakin and suggest that he's stronger, but that'd be ludicrous.

I love how you continue to bring up Gillard when he's not a Canon source, its almost as if your making this up as you go along.

Regardless, that's not a response to the evidence that he actually cannot.

As of yet, Gillard remains a much stronger basis for a stance than a still of Mace vs Maul or an out-of-context snippet of Talzin vs Mace.

Not really. All you're going off is a still of him fighting Maul and an out-of-context snippet of his fight with Talzin.

Crap examples. In the first case the fight was no less even than what it was on screen

I don't know what you're talking about, but the lightsaber fight was a draw on-screen. Dooku only ever got the advantage with telekinesis.

and the in the second instance you've ascribed it an arbitrary time frame with zero evidence.

I thought it was established already. If it wasn't, then I'll drop the point. I'm not interested in arguing over timeframes.

Not sure what your point is.

Just curious to see how good Canon Anakin is. Not quite as good as Legends Anakin, evidently.

Out of context? OK. Let's put it into contexts. Those being Mace, an aggressive duelist, rushing Talzin with the intentions of pressing the offense, but finding himself rapidly backpedalling as of result of Talzin casually smacking away his blade and so getting past his guard.

That makes Talzin stronger, yeah.

Now as for the evidence you think counters this, bladelocks in SW are notoriously inconclusive, and don't necessarily suggest parity. Examples in which the same has been done including Dooku against Yoda & Anakin, and Ahsoka against Grievous and Vader. It's impressive yes, but it doesn't mean they are equals.

So yeah, I plan to continue ramming this "out of context snippet" down your throat sry.

🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know what you're talking about, but the lightsaber fight was a draw on-screen. Dooku only ever got the advantage with telekinesis.

Did it appear like that? Dooku takes out one of his sabers fairly quickly then owns him. The prequels aren't the best at showing the state of the fight due to over choreography, but Dooku was clearly the superior.

This part did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=2m10s

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Out of context? OK. Let's put it into contexts. Those being Mace, an aggressive duelist, rushing Talzin with the intentions of pressing the offense, but finding himself rapidly backpedalling as of result of Talzin casually smacking away his blade and so getting past his guard.

That makes Talzin stronger, yeah.

lol So Dooku's stronger than Anakin since he slapped aside Anakin's attack along with Obi-Wan's and unbalanced the former, "and so getting past his guard"?

Now as for the evidence you think counters this, bladelocks in SW are notoriously inconclusive, and don't necessarily suggest parity. Examples in which the same has been done including Dooku against Yoda & Anakin, and Ahsoka against Grievous and Vader. It's impressive yes, but it doesn't mean they are equals.

That might be the case if it were a one-off (like your example), but not if it were repeated bladelocks. Besides, I mentioned Mace pushing Talzin back as well, not just the inconclusive ones.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm talking about the good 20 seconds in AotC where Dooku and Anakin appear to fight evenly. The TCW duel is just an extension of that.

The junior novel claims that Dooku's toying with Anakin, and the script has Dooku stomping Anakin after recovering from the little surprise he got when Anakin attacked with two sabers. And a range of supplementary sources support Dooku winning easily or being far better, even in Canon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol So Dooku's stronger than Anakin since he slapped aside Anakin's attack along with Obi-Wan's and unbalanced the former, "and so getting past his guard"?

That might be the case if it were a one-off (like your example), but not if it were repeated bladelocks. Besides, I mentioned Mace pushing Talzin back as well, not just the inconclusive ones.

The junior novel claims that Dooku's toying with Anakin, and the script has Dooku stomping Anakin after recovering from the little surprise he got when Anakin attacked with two sabers. And a range of supplementary sources support Dooku winning easily or being far better, even in Canon.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He caused their blades to rebound off each other, and moreover is a master of leverage. Poor example. 🙂

There was a brief saberlock, so it wasn't just a rebound.

Why? And when Mace pushed Talzin back he had superior leverage.

Talzin had the advantage of momentum, since she was jumping down on him. And he still pushed her back.

Which should tell you something about their Tatooine duel.

It would if Anakin doesn't happen to be on the losing end against Tyranus in S6.