Karness Murr is better than every version of Vader until his supporters can proove that his "powar growth" fills the gap. Vader here has already got his best TK feat around the time Karness' spirit came to visit him - collapsing the cathedral without life support and being exhausted. Still, I'd say Luke has a chance when you consider his own feats.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Karness Murr is better than every version of Vader until his supporters can proove that his "powar growth" fills the gap.
Vader's potential, which even after Mustafar is enormous (80-100% of Sidious's depending on which source you use), combined with the fact that he was literally a few weeks from a cataclysmic injury when he encountered Murr, years of combat experience and study of the dark side, and at least two explicit mentions of his power having considerably increased (ESB and RotJ), make it more likely than not that he's surpassed Murr, given that beyond that singular example, Vader's feats and accolades are far superior, as would his potential + years to grow would imply.
But it's convenient to try to shift the burden of proof to Vader supporters to "prove" that his power growth "fills the gaps", rather than phrasing it for Murr supporters to "prove" that his power advantage outstrips said power growth. The better standard here is preponderance of evidence, which there clearly is.
Vader here has already got his best TK feat around the time Karness' spirit came to visit him - collapsing the cathedral without life support and being exhausted.
His best TK feat is choking Starkiller.
I am traveling rite now. I don't have time to write poetry or give you quick responses, but i'll try my best 🙂
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader's potential, which even after Mustafar is enormous (80-100% of Sidious's depending on which source you use)
The same guy who gave us Vader's potential estimation also implied he was a lesser fighter than every person featured in the Phantom Menace - this would be considering ROTJ. This also brings to mind a conversation regarding Lucas' creative authority in Legends/canon since he sold the franchise to the white slavers. If the Holocron system no longer applies, than Lucas' credibility is somewhat diminished - especially considering Legends content.
combined with the fact that he was literally a few weeks from a cataclysmic
Which would make a huge difference if some of his appendages were removed or eventually made unnecessary, they weren't. The only thing you can really vouch for is Vader getting used to the suit in terms of manoeuvrability, otherwise, he's still needs the same external supports to breath/function and that pretty much remains unchanged - as does his diminished potential. But in regards to "raw power", I don't see much of a difference. A lot of his best feats, in the department of telekinesis at least (which is essentially a red note of raw unfettered power), happen in 19 BBY. The cathedral feat being one of, if not his most notable, especially when you consider Vader's condition.
years of combat experience and study of the dark side, and at least two explicit mentions of his power having considerably increased (ESB and RotJ) make it more likely than not that he's surpassed Murr, given that beyond that singular example
Yes, i know that Vader was given a paltry growth in 'power' iterated in his own thoughts. the problem is we're not given an idea how far the gap between himself is between his confrontation with Murr (0.1 %? 10 %? 200 %?). I will admit, his lightsaber technique has had several annotations surrounding them, but in regards to power - and the only expression that has ever mattered to you, telekinetic power, the discrepancy in feats, is basically nil. If we want to talk about lightsabers, and find some measuring stick between the two, than Karness should be quite a bit ahead of the Kenobi Hett faced, who is far less rusty that Vader's duelling partner in a New Hope.
Vader's feats and accolades are far superior, as would his potential + years to grow would imply.
Correction, Vader has more feats and accolades. Enlightenment, the only time Murr has ever been compared to modern characters, was in excerpts to show how much better he was than everyone, which includes Vader.
But it's convenient to try to shift the burden of proof to Vader supporters to "prove" that his power growth "fills the gaps", rather than phrasing it for Murr supporters to "prove" that his power advantage outstrips said power growth.
It's convenient because no such 'proof' that Vader has surpassed Murr has been given. This doesn't even mention how much more diminished Karness is in 'spirit mode' compared to his flesh and bone self. That gap is probably bigger than the basically non-existent power growth Vader transcends.
The better standard here is preponderance of evidence, which there clearly is.
The only amounting evidence that favours some miraculous transformation, is confined to skill with a lightsaber. But even then, Karness can be scaled as Vader's superior in that regard. He was in a lesser condition against Vong Krayt, and still managed to defeat a guy who had, 100 hundred years earlier, given Kenobi a rather stellar battle before defeating 1000's of enemies and perfecting his skill. Unless, what...? You wanna tell me that Krayt hasn't surpassed Kenobi in that time-gap? In which case, any argument attempting to exaggerate Vader's "power growth" instantly looses credibility.
His best TK feat is choking Starkiller.
And what is that suppose to tell me? You do realise the only version of the game depicting this, also has Starkiller breaking out of the choke (presumably when he tried to) only to rag doll Vader himself?
Originally posted by MythLord
Wredd doing sh!t after Krayt's death applies to a quote about Krayt? Also, that quote was retconned the day Wyyrlok the III contended with Krayt.
Apparently, though I've questioned this logic before as well.
All things being equal though if we're going to say this doesn't apply to Krayt we can't say K'Kruhk's feat applies to Dooku either.
Also we don't know if Krayt allowed Wyyr to contend only to humiliate him later on or if Wyyr really did.
Why not? K'kruhk performed the feat a few months after he got dominated by Vos, who's inferior to Asajj, who got one-shotted by Tyranus.
Even if we're assuming he grew considerably -- which I doubt -- he'd still be pretty low on the spectrum in comparison to Dooku; enough for Tyranus to ragdoll him.
Doesn't seem like something Krayt would do.