4 Karness Muur's vs Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The same guy who gave us Vader's potential estimation also implied he was a lesser fighter than every person featured in the Phantom Menace - this would be considering ROTJ. This also brings to mind a conversation regarding Lucas' creative authority in Legends/canon since he sold the franchise to the white slavers. If the Holocron system no longer applies, than Lucas' credibility is somewhat diminished - especially considering Legends content.

That Lucas, or the continuity as a whole, changes his mind on some issues doesn't invalidate every single statement of his by transitive property, or else we should invalidate all novels because the RotJ adaptation claims Ben Lars is Obi Wan's brother.

But even if we assume for the sake of argument that Lucas's word no longer counts just because Disney now owns the franchise (even though all of the movies he produced and directed mysteriously still do), we still know as a general principle that Force users aren't at their peak in their twenties, which Vader at this point was, plus having been seriously maimed and put into a suit he's entirely unfamiliar with, along with all of his psychological issues.

Which would make a huge difference if some of his appendages were removed or eventually made unnecessary, they weren't. The only thing you can really vouch for is Vader getting used to the suit in terms of manoeuvrability, otherwise, he's still needs the same external supports to breath/function and that pretty much remains unchanged - as does his diminished potential. But in regards to "raw power", I don't see much of a difference. A lot of his best feats, in the department of telekinesis at least (which is essentially a red note of raw unfettered power), happen in 19 BBY. The cathedral feat being one of, if not his most notable, especially when you consider Vader's condition.

Nope. The RotS novelization describes Vader's condition of being a shadow of his former self, having lost so much power that he can only get a faint glimpse of who he once was. A few weeks doesn't change that.

Yes, i know that Vader was given a paltry growth in 'power' iterated in his own thoughts.

And via an external source for the ESB claim.

the problem is we're not given an idea how far the gap between himself is between his confrontation with Murr (0.1 %? 10 %? 200 %?).

This ambiguity works both ways, so we defer to the rest of the body of evidence, which is reflected in Vader's superior feats and accolades.

I will admit, his lightsaber technique has had several annotations surrounding them, but in regards to power - and the only expression that has ever mattered to you, telekinetic power, the discrepancy in feats, is basically nil.

What Murr telekinetic feats are you referring to?

If we want to talk about lightsabers, and find some measuring stick between the two, than Karness should be quite a bit ahead of the Kenobi Hett faced, who is far less rusty that Vader's duelling partner in a New Hope.

That's not really what a measuring stick is, given that Murr and Obi Wan never met. We just know that Vader has better accolades as a duelist, and has better feats in technical prowess (constructing his own functioning style within weeks of being crippled, being considered one of the best duelists ever, etc.) combined with having been competitive in an era with far superior saber duelists, more years of cumulative dueling knowledge, and almost certainly more raw power given his apparent potential.

Correction, Vader has more feats and accolades. Enlightenment, the only time Murr has ever been compared to modern characters, was in excerpts to show how much better he was than everyone, which includes Vader.

Being better than a near-death Krayt and a weeks-from-Mustafar Vader does not impress me as much as Vader being more powerful than Galen Marek, who was written to be "one of the most powerful Force users ever" and a reflection of what Luke would've been had he trained under Vader, or being considered far more powerful than Kar Vastor, who was far stronger than Mace Windu, or being considered above the likes of Gethzerion.

It's convenient because no such 'proof' that Vader has surpassed Murr has been given. This doesn't even mention how much more diminished Karness is in 'spirit mode' compared to his flesh and bone self. That gap is probably bigger than the basically non-existent power growth Vader transcends.

You think twenty years of someone in their twenties, having recently started from scratch, is "non-existent", even when it's stated outright that he grows considerably stronger in just the months between ANH and ESB, then in the months between ESB and RotJ, and presumably between TFU and TFUII (given his losing to Marek but superiority to Starkiller)?

And where's the evidence that Murr is weaker as a spirit? Oh, right - you just presume this from beings like Exar being mentioned in a few sources to be weaker. .i.e. far less support than that which goes for Vader.

The only amounting evidence that favours some miraculous transformation,

Where did you get the word "miraculous" from? Your incredulity over the idea that one of the most powerful Force users ever would improve in twenty years is hilariously forced and unbelievable.

is confined to skill with a lightsaber. But even then, Karness can be scaled as Vader's superior in that regard. He was in a lesser condition against Vong Krayt, and still managed to defeat a guy who had, 100 hundred years earlier, given Kenobi a rather stellar battle before defeating 1000's of enemies and perfecting his skill. Unless, what...? You wanna tell me that Krayt hasn't surpassed Kenobi in that time-gap? In which case, any argument attempting to exaggerate Vader's "power growth" instantly looses credibility.

No, I'll tell you that Krayt was literally dying from the terminal illness of being infested by giant spikes.

And what is that suppose to tell me? You do realise the only version of the game depicting this, also has Starkiller breaking out of the choke (presumably when he tried to) only to rag doll Vader himself?

So? The point is that he was on even grounds with Galen Marek, and later superior to Starkiller (as the writers confirm, he was letting Starkiller win, and would've easily beaten him otherwise), and then grows more powerful through to RotJ; this means that he is more powerful than a guy who can blow apart frigates.

Murr loses. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do you think so?

That's a thread for another time, but in short, I believe him to be a superior duelist based on his Imperial Knight feat and scaling from Kenobi, and a superior Force user (not necessarily more powerful, just more effective) with his vide variety of powers like lightning, drain, TP etc. that are all effective on Vader.

Originally posted by Azronger
That's a thread for another time, but in short, I believe him to be a superior duelist based on his Imperial Knight feat and scaling from Kenobi, and a superior Force user (not necessarily more powerful, just more effective) with his vide variety of powers like lightning, drain, TP etc. that are all effective on Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That Lucas, or the continuity as a whole, changes his mind on some issues doesn't invalidate every single statement of his by transitive property, or else we should invalidate all novels because the RotJ adaptation claims Ben Lars is Obi Wan's brother.

Ellimist, what are you talking about? This an issue of whether Lucas' unofficial statements are part of canonical lore as they once were - via the Holocron system. This is not an issue over individual inconstancies that can be nitpicked within hair strands dotted all over the universe. Let me put this into perspective, Lucas deferred responsibility of the Expanded Universe when he hired Leeland Chee to start taking reign. From there, a system and heirachy was created to differentiate levels of canon with one exception - that Lucas, as the primary copyright holder and owner of Lucasfilm, would have the ultimate say above any other creative medium. As Lucas is no longer the copyright holder, no longer the owner of Star Wars, that rule doesn't have to apply to him. Unless you want to argue from author (unofficial) intent. In which case, there's enough modern literary criticism to reject that line of thinking in Wimsatt and Beardsley's "The Intentional Fallacy" and Barthes' Death of the Author essay. I suggest you read them. In addition to this, Lucas has on-record stated that the interpretations of fans are better than his opinions on the matter, claiming nobody knows this franchise better than the fans.

But even if we assume for the sake of argument that Lucas's word no longer counts just because Disney now owns

Yes, and for the sake of handling Vader's disfigured scrotal sac, Lucas' other statements on the issue aren't very favourable. This is a guy who puts Vader on the same tier as Maul and Dooku; i know that conflicts with your idea of how things should be. He's also implied that Vader is a lesser combatant than the featured Lightsaber duelists in TPM, and has done the same for Ben Kenobi and ROTJ Luke.

the franchise (even though all of the movies he produced and directed mysteriously still do)

Where is the word mysterious coming from? There's nothing mysterious about the matter when Disney bought the rights to the six movies as published works of canon, and not statements made in interviews.

we still know as a general principle that Force users aren't at their peak in their twenties, which Vader at this point was, plus having been seriously maimed and put into a suit he's entirely unfamiliar with, along with all of his psychological issues.

We also know that as a general principle that Force spirits, or in the case of Karness Murr, Sith spectres have less control over the physical realm as Force users and suffer from a diminished presence. Do you know why that is? Well it's the same reason why Vader's potential halved. The lack of living tissue making it harder for the Force to flow through one's body. While Vader had his limbs replaced with metal appendages, Murr's spirit doesn't have a body at all. There isn't much of a contest to who suffers from a worse condition, since the strength to your connection to the Force is determined by the amount of midi-chlorians in your body-cells, losing your entire body will negatively affect your connection with the Force and your ability to use it. Hence why Force spirits are usually not even capable of physically affecting the world. The gap between Karness' spectre and his corporeal self is bigger than suited Vader's arbitrary increases in powar and knowledge. And Vader admitted inferiority to the spectre, setting the motion in stone.

And via an external source for the ESB claim.

And just as negligible, I imagine.

What Murr telekinetic feats are you referring to?

I'm referring to Vader's feats directly after ROTS, which in regard to raw unfettered Telekinetic power are some of his best - his cathedral feat probably being the best considering the condition he was in. This is the same Vader that bows to Murr's spirit as replacement for his master.

That's not really what a measuring stick is, given that Murr and Obi Wan never met.

You're either being deliberately obtuse to ignore a valid comparison concerning Vader's piss poor duelling track record, or forgetting events and statements that occur to Make it so. The jig is up. Vong Krayt might be suffering from ailments, but the transformation between himself and the exiled Jedi Hett, is going to be as large, if not greater than whatever increases Vader received through experience and knowledge. There's a much wider gap in comparison. Yes, Murr fought Vong Krayt who is not as powerful as his Reborn self, but Krayt had Vong implants when contending with Abeloth in 40 ABY. He had Vong implants when the members of his Sith Empire thought that Caedus was a joke in comparison. He then gets one-hundred years of experience, and was healed right before the fight by Muur. And the The healing wasn't superficial either. So yeah, Krayt was in a better condition than he was for most of the series beforehand when Fighting Murr and probably stronger than many of his other incarnations which are all inferably more powerful than Vader.... and to be honest, I'm not even sure if Sidious hasn't been surpassed here.

We just know that Vader has better accolades as a duelist

Correction, he has more accolades as a duellist the ilk of which aren't even better than the kind Adi Gaila would receive. While on the other hand, Murr is >>> Old Ben Kenobi through a sensible analysis of who fights who and who wins against who. And really, in spite of his aptitude, it's pretty embarrassing that Vader is matched such a poorly trained Luke in ROTJ. I legitimately put Vong Krayt B-teaming the imperial knights above anything Vader has done in his Sith Career with regards to a blade and blade confrontation with other Force users.

and has better feats in technical prowess (constructing his own functioning style within weeks of being crippled

And how is this effective to battle when he was stalemating and then beaten by someone who's basic knowledge of the forms is abhorrent (Luke). Am I to assume someone like Kas'im who perfected those forms, and "devised his own" would be more technically sophisticated than Vader? What you must understand, is Vader's re-construction meant he had to incorporate elements from the forms, as the one he's was utilizing earlier in his Sith career was a clumsy method comprised of stiffly executed vertical strikes that served to wear down opponents - as noted by Roan Shrine. Vader's hybrid form is nothing special. It's nothing unique. It's a compromise for severely reduced augmentation and hindered mobility that any decent acrobat can exploit. Your right, Murr isn't stated to have any unique fashionabilities to make him stand out among a crowd, but I'd be willing to put him above Vader just because of the latter's handicaps and duelling failures.

being considered one of the best duelists ever, etc.) combined with having been competitive in an era with far superior saber duelists,

And who exactly are these more impressive duelists? Are they the fodder Jedi that have stifled Vader before his prime? Or are you regarding Obi-Wan Kenobi a "shell of his former self" in A New Hope willingly conceding a slash across his torso in a battle of "near equals" ? And a superior duelling era? Laughable. There are some big names who might take precedence over the other eras - Dooku, Anakin, Mace, Yoda (these aren't even truly in Vader's era). But please don't be fooled... Vader is batting in the era of exiled Jedi from the worst period of duelling - ever - which is reaffirmed by sources stating how duelling became obsolete, or how it declined. And yes, I've seen your a arm chair theory on how these tikes, who never have confronted the Sith in battle, are better than those who came before them. It's a shame the data on this matter doesn't share your opinion.

more years of cumulative duelling knowledge

Proof that the lightsaber forms have changed or improved? May i remind you, that they also had a thousand years to improve lightsaber technology itself, yet the weapon is fundamentally stagnant. No features - such as blade length & intensity manipulation - are any more advanced in modern times than they were in the day of Exar Kun. In fact, people like Nomi Sunrider could smash Mandolian Iron with their blades - something that’s scarcely seen during the New Jedi Order. If there is some inferred advancement in the forms, and the acceptance of such a premise is only logical, then why has the weapon itself remained unchanged? Secondly, if the forms themselves were adjusted, why are they better for duelling, than their supposed out of date derivatives? Given the type of adversary they’d expect - i.e blaster users , one can logically infer any modifications were tailored for facing blasters. So if you want to argue the likelihood of combat ‘modifications’ to the lightsaber forms, then I’ll argue the likelihood of those ‘modifications’ having nothing to do with duelling - and if that were the case, the PT Jedi would be even less prepared for lightsaber combat than we once expected.

and almost certainly more raw power given his apparent potential.

And you might have a point If Anakin Skywalker was being discussed.

Being better than a near-death Krayt and a weeks-from-Mustafar Vader does not impress me as much as Vader being more powerful than Galen Marek, who was written to be "one of the most powerful Force users ever" and a reflection of what Luke would've been had he trained under

The Vong Krayt that Murr - who was weakened in Celeste Morn's body - fought against, shits on all every character Vader has ever come across, including Galen Marek, who gets slapped by shadowgaurds, Proxy modules and literal fodder : Rham Kota - defeated by Boba Fett, Shaak Ti - stomped by Grievous twice and other no names such as Maris brood and Paratus. If we're going by the Wii version - which you have included as evidence - then that list includes several non Force sensitives as well as a simulation of Darth Desolus. If Galen was supposed to be one of the most powerful Force users ever, then they should have made some clear accolade in the relevant material, seen as there is nothing addressing him in that manner, it comes under the realm of non-canon statements and interpation. Sure, Galen has good feats in TK, but so does weeks-from-Mustafa Vader. Namely, the Cathedral feat. Which considering the condition Vader was in, is probably better than anything Galen has done. I'm going of the notion that the cathedral in question is probably far bigger than most modern cathedrals - 150 meters.

Vader, or being considered far more powerful than Kar Vastor, who was far stronger than Mace Windu,

Where ?

or being considered above the likes of Gethzerion.

Are we still peddling this dead quote?

You think twenty years of someone in their twenties, having recently started from scratch

Starting from scratch is misleading. He lost a considerable amount of potential and had to rebuild his lightsaber technique. Other than that, his Force abilties don't seem to have improved significantly. What ever knowledge he wasn't enough for him to overpower anyone of note.

is "non-existent" even when it's stated outright that he grows considerably stronger in just the months between ANH and ESB

An accolade, that as far as I recall, is directly in reference to his lightsaber prowess. Which I never denied improved. Although his duelling track reccord is pretty shit throughout his entire career, including the end of it, so I'm not holding my breath to how much of an improvement this is.

then in the months between ESB and RotJ

Again, Vader feeling more powerful than ever questions wether he grew at all, or whether it's a case of cognitive dissonance. I still don't see why this gap is significant enough to be mentioned. There is very little to support it considering he lost against Luke - who is really the person who should be credited with a huge upgrade.

, and presumably between TFU and TFUII (given his losing to Marek but superiority to Starkiller)?

him loosing to both Starkiller's doesn't signify improvement.

So? The point is that he was on even grounds with Galen Marek, and later superior to Starkiller

(as the writers confirm, he was letting Starkiller win, and would've easily beaten him otherwise),

I don't remember Sam Witwer being the writer for TFUII? Are you claiming that he's sharing the views of other people on the matter? Another thorny issue is that not all stories have a single creator, and the collaborators may not actually agree with interpretations of their story that weren't made explicit in the work. In this case, there are multiple "creators" giving potentially contradictory explanations, so whose word is to be considered correct? Likewise, in many cases the writers of a story are not the copyright holders, meaning that they're not the highest authorities on its meaning even if you do subscribe to the Word of God theory. If a work has more than one creator and they disagree with each other on a crucial point, you'll likely see fans embrace conflicting statements. What happens when multiple fans are equipped with the statements of different voice actors? What happens when one Word turns out to be more ridiculous than expected? Can you provide evidence of a more canonical note?

and then grows more powerful through to RotJ; this means that he is more powerful than a guy who can blow apart frigates.

Vader lost to a Starkiller who blew apart a third of a frigate and Karness Murr, as a spectre, with a limited ability to effect the physical realm, is more powerful than a guy who blew apart a structure bigger than that, while on his deathbed. Murr wins.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because it occurs after and logically the Sith who moved that satellite are far inferior to Vong Krayt just like K'Kruhk is far inferior to Dooku. You can't apply logic to one scenario but ignore it in another to suit your bias Wolf.

Wut now? They aren't the same things, since with K'kruhk we see him getting dominated by a person who Dooku can make a toy out of, whereas Krayt doesn't have a domination stream, he has an accolade that refers to his time.

K'kruhks power growth would've been negligable in comparison to how much of a gap there is between him and Tyranus. Anyways, I already said the quote can apply to whats-his-face, since he's technically part of the Legacy era.

Originally posted by MythLord
Wredd doing sh!t after Krayt's death applies to a quote about Krayt? Also, that quote was retconned the day Wyyrlok the III contended with Krayt.

Wyyrlok's attacks being batted aside doesn't exactly constitute contention.

Luke.