Originally posted by MythLord
- Killing almost any finite number of Vader's(as if he can kill them in the trillions)
- Him having infinite stamina(just because he can fight droids for hours doesn't mean he can do so to thousands of Darth Vader's -- the more the challenging the foe, the more reserves you'd have to waste to dispatch them)
Him using numerous powers without any signs of exhaustion for decades non-stop is kinda evident of endless stamina.
And why do you think he wouldn't kill so many Vaders? He, according to his own word, can annihilate a thousand enemies with mere inclination. The Vaders are defenseless against this.
He can also TP them to death, speedblitz and weaken them with lightning etc. And he has indestructible Force barriers. Vaders cannot kill him.
- Assuming eating a slice of cake is a good metaphor for the Dark Side adepts actually aiding in strengthening Byss
Why is it not? The wording is the same - neither implies anything of helping each other.
- Assuming the gap between a Kursid warrior and Darth Vader is the same as the gap between TPM and DE Sidious
Both Kursids and 52BBY* Sidious are one-shottable fodder to Vader and DE Sidious, respectively. I don't see what the issue is.
Originally posted by Azronger
Him using numerous powers without any signs of exhaustion for decades non-stop is kinda evident of endless stamina.
No it isn't, lmao. "Endless" is a concept literally ingraspable by anything finite and sad to say, but Sidious is finite.
Again, the danger of the enemies decides just how much of your reserves you'll use. And given how Luke, who is holistically and canonically > Palpatine, was getting exhausted after raiding Shimrra's palace, I don't think Sheev's stamina is enough to withstand an assault from even a hundred Vaders.
Originally posted by Azronger
And why do you think he wouldn't kill so many Vaders? He, according to his own word, can annihilate a thousand enemies with mere inclination. The Vaders are defenseless against this.
Palpatine's boasts aren't canon, especially not when those boasts probably refer to non-Force sensitives or fodder Jedi/Sith, something Vader certainly isn't.
Originally posted by Azronger
He can also TP them to death, speedblitz and weaken them with lightning etc. And he has indestructible Force barriers. Vaders cannot kill him.
TP them to death? Because he can fog Vader's mind across the galaxy? That hardly means he can kill dozens of them TP. His Barrier is hardly indestructible, and under the insane pressure of lightsaber strikes from one of the MVP Sith in all existance and dozens of his equals, it'll give way, especially when Sidious has to simultaneously summon Force Lightning and telepathically influence even more Vaders.
He has limits, he cannot multitask so effectively. The only way he's beating more than 5 Vader's is by gaining distance and spamming Force Storm.
Originally posted by Azronger
Why is it not? The wording is the same - neither implies anything of helping each other.
Because in one case, you're splitting one thing into several parts, whereas here they're all focusing on one thing in completion. Palpatine set up the base, then the adepts came in and focused the Dark Side even more.
Originally posted by Azronger
Both Kursids and 52BBY* Sidious are one-shottable fodder to Vader and DE Sidious, respectively. I don't see what the issue is.
The gap is not at all the same, however. And 52 BBY Sidious is hardly one-shottable by Dark Empire Sidious, and even then... one is comparing a primitive, non-Force sensitive versus one of the MVP Sith of all time, the other is comparing a vastly less powerful version of a character to his latter incarnation.
Even if DE Sidious can one-shot his 52 BBY version, he certainly couldn't stomp dozens of them, whereas Vader wouldn't have a problem slaughtering vast groups of Kursid warriors.
Originally posted by MythLord
No it isn't, lmao. "Endless" is a concept literally ingraspable by anything finite and sad to say, but Sidious is finite.
You took it way too literally.
Again, the danger of the enemies decides just how much of your reserves you'll use. And given how Luke, who is holistically and canonically > Palpatine, was getting exhausted after raiding Shimrra's palace, I don't think Sheev's stamina is enough to withstand an assault from even a hundred Vaders.
Maybe if he enters into a lightsaber duel. But he can clearly defeat the with his Force powers.
Palpatine's boasts aren't canon, especially not when those boasts probably refer to non-Force sensitives or fodder Jedi/Sith, something Vader certainly isn't.
Why would he lie, when in the same source he admits his limits? What's the motive?
And more importantly, where's the evidence against this? The way Force Storms are depicted in DE, and based on Luke's commentary, I'd say he gave a conservative estimate of his power.
And it doesn't really matter who it is referring to, since Vader will be annihilated regardless. Or do you have evidence against this? I've made my case in part 8.
TP them to death? Because he can fog Vader's mind across the galaxy? That hardly means he can kill dozens of them TP. His Barrier is hardly indestructible, and under the insane pressure of lightsaber strikes from one of the MVP Sith in all existance and dozens of his equals, it'll give way, especially when Sidious has to simultaneously summon Force Lightning and telepathically influence even more Vaders.
I already gave my reasoning regarding TP.
I'd say Sidious' own Force Lightning is more pressurizing than Vader's lightsaber strikes, and even that didn't cause a scratch. He only continued to fire lightning.
He has limits, he cannot multitask so effectively. The only way he's beating more than 5 Vader's is by gaining distance and spamming Force Storm.
Tell that to him when he used galactic BM, planetary Force Drain, planetary Force Illusions, and SSD TK at the same time.
Or by spamming Force lightning. Or TP. Re-read my post and tell me then how the Vaders win.
Because in one case, you're splitting one thing into several parts, whereas here they're all focusing on one thing in completion. Palpatine set up the base, then the adepts came in and focused the Dark Side even more.
So are me and my friend. We're both trying to eat a cake, same as Sidious and his Adepts are trying to drain Byss. This does not mean anybody required help, only that there were multiple people involved.
The Adepts strengthening the Byss nexus doesn't mean anything since Sidious was on Coruscant all the time.
The gap is not at all the same, however. And 52 BBY Sidious is hardly one-shottable by Dark Empire Sidious, and even then... one is comparing a primitive, non-Force sensitive versus one of the MVP Sith of all time, the other is comparing a vastly less powerful version of a character to his latter incarnation.Even if DE Sidious can one-shot his 52 BBY version, he certainly couldn't stomp dozens of them, whereas Vader wouldn't have a problem slaughtering vast groups of Kursid warriors. [/B]
Whether he can is a debate for another time, but I still fail to understand how are numbers going to make the difference? It's like saying a bunch of toddlers can overwhelm an adult.
Originally posted by Azronger
What do you disagree on?
Not sure if you addressed this and I missed it but:
1. Force users do get fatigued, Luke got fatigued in TUF, Dooku got fatigued in RotS, Obi Wan is clearly breathing heavily near the end of the RotS duel, as is Qui-Gon after his first encounter with Maul, etc. I think these are much more tangible pieces of evidence than just assuming that Stover literally meant eternity by "endless", as if their fight would outlive the heat death of the universe or something.
As for Byss, it isn't clear that draining that is more energy intensive than doing the infinite lightning-spam that you'd need here. It almost certainly isn't, given that it takes up significantly less of his attention.
2. You're assuming his Force barriers can be put at maximum level indefinitely.
3. Telepathy hardly matters; he can drop Vader to his knees, that doesn't mean he can do much if there are like trillions attacking him from all angles.
4. What about Valkorion being threatened by Arcann and Vaylin, or Vader and Starkiller potentially challenging Palpatine?
Force Storm is a good point though, and you've definitely convinced me that numbers matter even less than I had initially thought, at least when dealing with combatants at this level. But I don't agree with the most extreme version of your position.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if you addressed this and I missed it but:1. Force users do get fatigued, Luke got fatigued in TUF, Dooku got fatigued in RotS, Obi Wan is clearly breathing heavily near the end of the RotS duel, as is Qui-Gon after his first encounter with Maul, etc. I think these are much more tangible pieces of evidence than just assuming that Stover literally meant eternity by "endless", as if their fight would outlive the heat death of the universe or something.
Of course they do. Eventually.
Stover's accolade wasn't my only piece of evidence. I merely brought it up as proof that even official canon acknowledges the possibility of Sidious fighting forever. This is supported by him fighting for hours and not showing the slightest sign of fatigue. Also the Byss feat.
Point is: Sidious' limits of endurance have never been established. In all the sources where he does lengthy Force use, he never tires, and canon says he can possibly fight for eternity. I think that's pretty self-evident.
As for Byss, it isn't clear that draining that is more energy intensive than doing the infinite lightning-spam that you'd need here. It almost certainly isn't, given that it takes up significantly less of his attention.
I thought it was generally accepted that Drain is harder to pull of than Lightning. Even if not, Battle Meditation, Force Illusions, Mind Domination, and Drain Life together certainly are.
2. You're assuming his Force barriers can be put at maximum level indefinitely.
If he can keep up BM, FI, MD, and DL, I don't see why Barrier would be any different.
3. Telepathy hardly matters; he can drop Vader to his knees, that doesn't mean he can do much if there are like trillions attacking him from all angles.
Read my post again.
1. He isn't getting attacked by trillions at once. Only the Vaders in the front lines can harm him.
2. He can kill Vader just by thinking about it. He knows the technique, and if Yoda and Luke couldn't resist Sidious, neither is Vader.
3. He has affected 10000 Force users with TP with no strain for the entirety of the Clone Wars (Yoda included), before growing thousands of times more powerful in this regard. Now why can't he kill a couple of Vaders with TP, then move onto a couple of others, and so on?
4. What about Valkorion being threatened by Arcann and Vaylin, or Vader and Starkiller potentially challenging Palpatine?
Valkorion isn't DE Sidious, lmao. I thought you of all people knew this.
Where is the latter even remotely implied? Vader chose to kill his apprentice rather than face his Master alongside him.
Force Storm is a good point though, and you've definitely convinced me that numbers matter even less than I had initially thought, at least when dealing with combatants at this level. But I don't agree with the most extreme version of your position.
How many do you think he could kill, then?
Originally posted by Azronger
Stover's accolade wasn't my only piece of evidence. I merely brought it up as proof that even official canon acknowledges the possibility of Sidious fighting forever. This is supported by him fighting for hours and not showing the slightest sign of fatigue. Also the Byss feat.
Fighting for hours against non-Force sensitives =/= fighting an army of Vaders for eternity.
Point is: Sidious' limits of endurance have never been established. In all the sources where he does lengthy Force use, he never tires, and canon says he can possibly fight for eternity. I think that's pretty self-evident.
We can infer his fatigue from the fact that superior combatants like Luke can tire. As for the Stover quote, let's be realistic: if we take "endless" literally, we'd have to conclude that Sidious can outlive the heat death of the universe, that he had already become biologically immortal, etc.
I thought it was generally accepted that Drain is harder to pull of than Lightning. Even if not, Battle Meditation, Force Illusions, Mind Domination, and Drain Life together certainly are.
Except that he's draining non-Force sensitives, and the "numbers don't matter" claim would scale Vader vs. these non-Force sensitives too.
If he can keep up BM, FI, MD, and DL, I don't see why Barrier would be any different.
Because draining some oblivious non-Force sensitives and using battle meditation on a fleet isn't the same as exerting enough to take out Vaders by the dozens, not when Vader also tanked Galen's suicide blast (albeit from a further distance).
Read my post again.1. He isn't getting attacked by trillions at once. Only the Vaders in the front lines can harm him.
If they surround him, we're talking about potentially hundreds, especially if they all throw their sabers at him.
You're also assuming that they can't combine powers, or add up their telekinesis.
2. He can kill Vader just by thinking about it. He knows the technique, and if Yoda and Luke couldn't resist Sidious, neither is Vader.
Or he could use lightning, but it isn't clear that he can kill scores of Vaders by thinking while they rush him.
3. He has affected 10000 Force users with TP with no strain for the entirety of the Clone Wars (Yoda included), before growing thousands of times more powerful in this regard. Now why can't he kill a couple of Vaders with TP, then move onto a couple of others, and so on?
Oh that's clearly not as difficult as actually fighting someone. He struggles and groans against Yoda, and clearly focuses himself attacking a defenseless Mace Windu; he isn't constantly grimacing from unbalancing the Force, which is prob not something he has to sustain.
Valkorion isn't DE Sidious, lmao. I thought you of all people knew this.
Arcann isn't Vader either; at any case, it's difficult to see a power growth that drastic, even if we're looking at Sidious's history; does he pass some inflection point somewhere along his training where this infinite killing is possible?
Where is the latter even remotely implied? Vader chose to kill his apprentice rather than face his Master alongside him.
Didn't Vader hesitate to turn on his apprentice when Sidious discovered them?
How many do you think he could kill, then?
With storms he could conceivably teleport away and then fry them all, so I'd say as many as would fit on a planetary surface. Without them, it depends on starting distance, etc.
Originally posted by Azronger
Oh, nevermind then. You're usually condescending towards me, so I thought you were being here, too.
Only in retaliation. I mean, every time I comment on a thread you're like "Wow, another wanky post." or "Going to cry about how your favorite character isn't where you put him at?"
When btw Dooku is actually my favorite character. Galen is just a character I champion because I felt he was underrated for a long time. Now I just do it for shits and giggles.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Fighting for hours against non-Force sensitives =/= fighting an army of Vaders for eternity.
As I have said in this thread, I know there are better army-busting feats. But that's completely beside the point. The point being that Sidious wasn't even remotely exhausted after his ordeal.
We can infer his fatigue from the fact that superior combatants like Luke can tire. As for the Stover quote, let's be realistic: if we take "endless" literally, we'd have to conclude that Sidious can outlive the heat death of the universe, that he had already become biologically immortal, etc.
How long did Luke fight for? In DE, he's already a superior lightsaber duelist, yet he gets tired after 20 minutes of fighting. Luke isn't Palpatine. Stamina isn't a measurement of raw power.
And no, I don't take Stover's accolade completely literally. I just put it there to dissuade those who think I'm using some "fanfic" version of Sidious, to prove that what I propose isn't nearly as ludicrous as some may think.
Except that he's draining non-Force sensitives, and the "numbers don't matter" claim would scale Vader vs. these non-Force sensitives too.
Okay. Let me ask a different question: For how long do you think he could drain and dominate 20 billion Vaders before being exhausted and why?
Because draining some oblivious non-Force sensitives and using battle meditation on a fleet isn't the same as exerting enough to take out Vaders by the dozens, not when Vader also tanked Galen's suicide blast (albeit from a further distance).
*Using Battle Meditation on the galaxy.
Based on what is him firing lightning on a square kilometer area at max intensity more exhausting than using drain/illusion/mind domination on a moderate intensity on a planetary scale, and using BM on moderate intensity on a galactic scale?
If they surround him, we're talking about potentially hundreds, especially if they all throw their sabers at him.
If they do that, Sidious either dodges, or destroys their sabers mid-air.
You're also assuming that they can't combine powers, or add up their telekinesis.
No, I'm not. I addressed all of this in my original post.
Or he could use lightning, but it isn't clear that he can kill scores of Vaders by thinking while they rush him.
Palpatine's mind can comprehend trillions of beings at once, lol. Thinking about all of them at once isn't difficult. Not saying he can kill a trillion Vaders but with the Byss scaling and his feat during the Clone Wars, killing a score would be a piece of cake.
Oh that's clearly not as difficult as actually fighting someone. He struggles and groans against Yoda, and clearly focuses himself attacking a defenseless Mace Windu; he isn't constantly grimacing from unbalancing the Force, which is prob not something he has to sustain.
Except Sidious isn't actually fighting against anybody who's in his tier of power here. All he has to do is picture it in his mind, and Vader dies.
And yes, he did sustain the unbalancing all the way to his final death in EE.
Arcann isn't Vader either; at any case, it's difficult to see a power growth that drastic, even if we're looking at Sidious's history; does he pass some inflection point somewhere along his training where this infinite killing is possible?
I don't really understand your point. Are you asking does Sidious have a feat where he kills hundreds of Force users? No. Does he have feats and scaling in other categories to suggest he is capable of this? Yes.
Didn't Vader hesitate to turn on his apprentice when Sidious discovered them?
Nope. He stabbed Galen immediately when the Emperor stepped into the room.
With storms he could conceivably teleport away and then fry them all, so I'd say as many as would fit on a planetary surface. Without them, it depends on starting distance, etc.
Why would he need to teleport away, when he could just sit at the eye of the storm, sipping at his coffee?
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only in retaliation. I mean, every time I comment on a thread you're like "Wow, another wanky post." or "Going to cry about how your favorite character isn't where you put him at?"When btw Dooku is actually my favorite character. Galen is just a character I champion because I felt he was underrated for a long time. Now I just do it for shits and giggles.
It's usually been you who's mocked me for my opinions for no reason really and been hostile in threads. I can't remeber a single instance where I've done the same.
But I honestly don't care about a shitfest such as this. Could we just stop?
Originally posted by Azronger
It's usually been you who's mocked me for my opinions for no reason really and been hostile in threads. I can't remeber a single instance where I've done the same.But I honestly don't care about a shitfest such as this. Could we just stop?
If you want. Believe it or not I prefer to have pleasant interactions with people on the forum.