The thing is, working at Google is not a nine to five job. I think it averages out at 60 hours a week—like at McKinsey—with entry-level programmers working a lot more hours. It also depends on where you live in the United States.
The entry-level median is at 106,407 USD a year.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/d2f8987b/Google-Inc.-Entry-Level
Nice attempt to pivot to SpaceX, but if you can show me where in this thread I stated that I wanted to work at SpaceX, I'll eat a bag of raw onions and live-stream it for you. EDIT: rest of paragraph redacted for privacy.
It's common knowledge that even some interns[/i] in Silicon Valley pull well into the six figures, with some companies like Snapchat paying almost double the number you threw out. Google, as I showed you earlier, pays its entry level software engineers six figures. Your bizarre attempt to get around this is to cite a job posting that requires five years of experience, except that that wasn't for software engineers. Google hires software engineers full-time straight out of college, which is hardly surprising given that the median age at that companies is the mid-late thirties. The simplest way to buy that this happens is that the majority of college interns end up receiving full-time offers. The number for Facebook is even higher. And if you're going to claim that entry level positions as SWEs require multiple years of experience even though the whole point of SWE internships is for them to return full-time upon graduation, you're gonna have to do some more digging beyond citing a posting for a completely different, far more risk adverse position.
Mind you, this is just base salary, to say nothing of singing bonuses, end of year bonuses and stock options.
Your one saving move is to claim that these are "outlier" salaries. Well, yes and no. They're outlier salaries with respect to the entire programming industry, obviously, but I'm citing average wages within these companies. And in either case, Lily is clearly an outlier case too, firstly because it's defined as such in the OP, and secondly because she's won international coding/math competitions and is at the top of her class at MIT. So looking at the extreme case is hardly unreasonable.
Originally posted by Astner
The thing is, working at Google is not a nine to five job. I think it averages out at 60 hours a week—like at McKinsey—with entry-level programmers working a lot more hours. It also depends on where you live in the United States.The entry-level median is at 106,407 USD a year.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/d2f8987b/Google-Inc.-Entry-Level
It's not necessarily the same as Mckinsey; working "60 hours a week" isn't as mandatory or egged on.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice attempt to pivot to SpaceX, but if you can show me where in this thread I stated that I wanted to work at SpaceX, I'll eat a bag of raw onions and live-stream it for you. EDIT: rest of paragraph redacted for privacy.
If you can quote in the thread where I stated that you directly stated that you wanted to work at SpaceX, be my guest.
Also, nice try to try and deflect from SpaceX to another location to help support your already crumbled argument. 👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's common knowledge that even some interns[/i] in Silicon Valley pull well into the six figures, with some companies like Snapchat paying bla bla bla
So you're pretending that an extrapolated salary is an actually salary? Nice try, but to the trash with this failed arugment you go. WEEEE!
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Mind you, this is just base salary, to say nothing of singing bonuses, end of year bonuses and stock options.
It literally says it includes that in the very first article you post. Did you even read it? I think not. I think you just google-searched something and posted what you thought supported your arguments.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your one saving move is to claim that these are "outlier" salaries.
So this is your direct concession. Good. Because I've never said they don't exist. Only that they are extremely rare and usually it's due to knowing someone.
Originally posted by Astner
The thing is, working at Google is not a nine to five job. I think it averages out at 60 hours a week—like at McKinsey—with entry-level programmers working a lot more hours. It also depends on where you live in the United States.The entry-level median is at 106,407 USD a year.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/d2f8987b/Google-Inc.-Entry-Level
Right, which further rains on the naive ideas that he has. Since he like to extrapolate salaries (rather, he relies on others to do the math), making 107k a year while working 60 work weeks is not an actual six figure salary. It's functionally at 73k a year salary.
Why not work for a government contractor, make about the same, but work 40 hour work weeks? Oh, that's right...one would have to have a better resume. 😉
139k a year? Still not functionally a 6 figure salary.
The answer is it depends entirely on the make up of the team. Lily sounds promising but is she worth a six figure salary right off the bat? Plus are we currently stocked with people of equal accolades or not. Are trying to fill an experience gap it not.
So many different questions would need to be addressed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So this is your direct concession. Good. Because I've never said they don't exist. Only that they are extremely rare and usually it's due to knowing someone.
I said that they "can" make six figures, and you literally said:
"Those jobs don't exist"
(page 2 of this thread). Your attempt to pivot to claiming they're outliers came later. Also, nice job ignoring (barring an edit) the link that tells you the entry level salary for Google software engineers.
Now, as I just explained, the fact that these salaries are unusual out of all software engineers is hardly relevant, because:
1. As the OP I'm perfectly allowed to come up with hypotheticals that deal with outlier cases.
2. Winning international coding/math competitions like Lily did is also an outlier, a far greater outlier than a six figure starting salary. So she's the type of person that gets headhunted by said companies that pay "outlier" salaries.
So, concession accepted. 👆
Originally posted by dadudemon
Right, which further rains on the naive ideas that he has. Since he like to extrapolate salaries (rather, he relies on others to do the math), making 107k a year while working 60 work weeks is not an actual six figure salary. It's functionally at 73k a year salary.Why not work for a government contractor, make about the same, but work 40 hour work weeks? Oh, that's right...one would have to have a better resume. 😉
139k a year? Still not functionally a 6 figure salary.
Nice backtracking. Where did I say it was "functionally" a six figure salary, rather than literally one? A six figure salary is a salary where you make 100,000 dollars or more; I never claimed that this translated into any particular lifestyle. I just said in the OP that the salary was six figures, and now you tried to strawman the position that I thought this was super high despite cost of living, etc.
Please just be a little mature and concede that you f*cked up and talked out of your ass, as a 30 second google search reveals.
Let me remind Dadudemon of how this train of conversation started:
-I say in the OP that the salary is six figures
-He claims this means the position is for a veteran
-I say not necessarily, some companies hire six figures out of college
-He denies this
-When confronted with data showing otherwise, he suddenly claims that I was missing the fact that six figures isn't actually that much given hours, etc.
WTF does the last pivot have to do with anything? If anything, the fact that it's functionally less money is a reason why it's MORE plausible that it could be an entry-level salary, not less. 🙄
Yeah, my "naivety" looks good in front of his argumentation skills, which are atrocious.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice backtracking. Where did I say it was "functionally" a six figure salary, rather than literally one?
Nice try. Where did I say you said it was functionally a six figure salary?
Seriously, my point went right over your head. Either that or this was a very poor attempt at a strawman.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Please just be a little mature and concede that you f*cked up and talked out of your ass, as a 30 second google search reveals.
No you. I honestly think that's what you did. And since I've called you out on your naive assumptions about the real world, multiple times now, you're upset. Don't be. Of course your ignorant and naive: you have many years to go. One day, you'll look back and say to yourself, "Gosh, I was so ignorant and naive. I knew so very very little. It's embarrassing some of the things I said."
Originally posted by dadudemon
And since I've called you out on your naive assumptions about the real world,
The point of contention here was whether some software engineers make six figures out of school. The context was *not* in the backdrop of how awesome this was or whether it was really all that much given the hours worked or whether it was better to work as a government contractor, etc. It was literally just that. It was you expressing incredulity over the OP's scenario of Lily competing for a six figure salary.
(hint: that the six figures isn't as much as it sounds makes this more plausible)
Despite your recent claims, you originally said that those jobs don't exist (you literally said that, verbatim). Your outlier backtrack came after (and is irrelevant since the OP is an outlier hypothetical anyway).
Astner, and myself, have cited statistics to demonstrate otherwise.
In other words, you lost. The question of whether six figures is a lot of money is separate from the objective question of whether the salary could be six figures, which it could be.
My "naive" assumption happened to be supported by actual data, while your "real world experience" was just an illusory product of your lack of comprehension skills.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Let me remind Dadudemon of how this train of conversation started:-I say in the OP that the salary is six figures
-He claims this means the position is for a veteran
Who are reminding of this? No one. No one cares about where you screwed up.
Remember the part where in your OP, you have a 20 year veteran applying for the same job and I provided actual evidence that your job can't possibly be describing what you wanted it to be?
You yourself admitted that this job was not a "very veteran" job, which implies that it is somewhat veteran.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's hardly clear that this is necessarily a very veteran position. Beyond that, I'll elaborate when I'm on a laptop.
Or did you forget that you indirectly admitted that this wasn't an entry level job?
And when I asked for a single job posting that was an entry level job, any job posting, that required 0 experience, you never provided it.
Where is it? Where's that job posting you are going to apply for?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I say not necessarily, some companies hire six figures out of college
-He denies this
-When confronted with data showing otherwise, he suddenly claims that I was missing the fact that six figures isn't actually that much given hours, etc.
Ugh. This never happened. This is getting painfully pathetic on your part. You're trying too hard, at this point.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
WTF does the last pivot have to do with anything? If anything, the fact that it's functionally less money [b]is a reason why it's MORE plausible that it could be an entry-level salary, not less. 🙄Yeah, my "naivety" looks good in front of his argumentation skills, which are atrocious. [/B]
The last point is to further prove how ignorant you really are. It is a completely separate point to the other points we have been discussing. But don't let that get in the way of your myopic world view. Continue believing anything I post is about how all of these entry level jobs pay 6 figures.
Here's what really happened:
1. You posted a very thinly veiled post where you brag about your idealized future self. Make tons of mistakes on the perfect scenario you feel was perfectly crafted to validate your embarassingly inflated opinion of yourself.
2. I point out, in my ignorance of the ongoing feud with others, how silly it is to hire you (Lily) for an obvious mid-level position and back up my claims with lots of evidence.
3. You get pissed because this is a direct affront to your ego. Confronted with facts and figures that burst you bubble of your idealized future, you go into a tirade.
4. Pretend you've been right, move goal posts, get shown that even your moved goalposts are still wrong, and get even more upset.
5. Make up shit about the conversation.
6. Get madder.
7. Heart rate goes up.
8. Get madder.
9. Fart a lot.
10. Shit your pants. Complete an entire bowel movement in your pants and then bounce up and down and the poop, squirting some out of the top of your pants.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
My "naive" assumption happened to be supported by actual data, while your "real world experience" was just an illusory product of your lack of comprehension skills.
And yet, I'm the one who actually posted real evidence. Actual, real, evidence, from your very own wish-list company, Google, and you ignored it.
Let me know when you land that 6 figure job at Google with 0 experience in a few years! 🙂
So, to wrap up this humiliating demonstration of Dadudemon's failures:
1. He questions the idea that someone can make six figures out of college as an engineer.
2. When showed the median entry level salary of Google software engineers, he finds a link to safety engineers and pretends they're the same thing.
3. When called out on that, he then claims that he never denied thinking you could make six figures out of college, but that they were just rare (even though he said exactly the opposite, and even though this OP is an outlier hypothetical in the first place).
4. When called out on that, he starts talking about SpaceX, even though I was talking about software companies like Google and Facebook.
5. When called out on that, he (well, had already) starts throwing insults about naivety and the "real world" when the original question was just a matter of googling payscale.
6. Then he starts talking about how six figures isn't actually that much, even though this fact would actually sabotage his own point that it's an implausible amount.
As it turns out, this discussion was mainly a product of reasoning skills and research ability, neither of which are very well correlated with age past your mid twenties anyway. Dadudemon tried to use his experience to compensate for his comprehension issues, even though he had less experience than me in Silicon Valley. And all of this because he was too arrogant to just concede the moment I pulled up the link to payscale.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And yet, I'm the one who actually posted real evidence. Actual, real, evidence, from your very own wish-list company, Google, and you ignored it.Let me know when you land that 6 figure job at Google with 0 experience in a few years! 🙂
I love how I mentioned like five times that you were linking to a safety engineer while I was talking about software engineers, and you literally pretend to not notice my pointing that out. Pathetic. Can you not read, or are you just deliberately dishonest?
Hint: software engineers are hired straight out of college, why do you think they have software engineering college interns? It's so that they can be given a full-time offer if they do well.
BTW, not exactly a wish-list. 👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So, to wrap up this humiliating demonstration of Dadudemon's failures:1. He questions the idea that someone can make six figures out of college as an engineer.
2. When showed the median entry level salary of Google software engineers, he finds a link to safety engineers and pretends they're the same thing.
3. When called out on that, he then claims that he never denied thinking you could make six figures out of college, but that they were just rare (even though he said exactly the opposite, and even though this OP is an outlier hypothetical in the first place).
4. When called out on that, he starts talking about SpaceX, even though I was talking about software companies like Google and Facebook.
5. When called out on that, he (well, had already) starts throwing insults about naivety and the "real world" when the original question was just a matter of googling payscale.
6. Then he starts talking about how six figures isn't actually that much, even though this fact would actually sabotage his own point that it's an implausible amount.As it turns out, this discussion was mainly a product of reasoning skills and research ability, neither of which are very well correlated with age past your mid twenties anyway. Dadudemon tried to use his experience to compensate for his comprehension issues, even though he had less experience than me in Silicon Valley. And all of this because he was too arrogant to just concede the moment I pulled up the link to payscale.
Now now, don't lie. Try to keep from having to lie to try to be right.
I was the first to point out that you can land a job like that due to a connection, not you:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15986680#post15986680
Note the use of "nepotism." And this was before I conceded that you wanted this to be about software engineers instead of my previously assumed aerospace engineer (because you said John has "been working at decently well known companies in the aerospace industry" which makes it rather obvious for what type of engineer you had in mind...not sure why you moved the goal posts from aerospace engineer to software engineer: oh wait, I do know: it's because they make far less right out of college so you had to move the goalposts to be right).
So you can't claim that I said this job was never ever had by anyone, ever, when I was the first to point out how it can happen.
I was also the first to point out that landing a job like that, with no experience, is an extremely low probability, and you even admitted it, here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15991359#post15991359
I mean...you've admitted to having the same position as me, indirectly. I just so happened to support my position with actual employment trends (something you have to be aware of and can't just google to find evidence for...which is what many degrees are doing these days: planting ideas of what to search for when you need an answer).