My case for Plagueis is:
1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.
2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.
3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?
4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close.
Originally posted by The Ellimistuh huh
My case for Plagueis is:1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.
2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.
3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?
4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close.
Originally posted by The EllimistThose points do make sense. I can definitely see a case for Plagueis>Novel Vitiate, I think Vitiate's hype is what gets him where he is as far as the novel is concerned.
My case for Plagueis is:1. As a proxy for raw power and overall mastery, shifting the balance of the Force to the point that it had to flee and create the Chosen One through immaculate conception to stop him is more impressive than, say, creating some lightning storms. Vitiate's only feat that remotely compares is his initial performance of Nathema, but that was on a nexus and using the energies of 8000 sith lords, of whom the majority of sources suggest participated willingly.
2. In terms of combat feats, Plagueis's ability to vaporize squads of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis and to deflect blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once is more impressive than getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus, which he won't be able to do here, not with Plagueis's own ranged attacks and speed feats.
3. Did I mention that all of Vitiate's feats at this point are on nexuses?
4. Even if Force power is a wash, Plagueis is much faster and deadlier up close.
Revan wouldn't have been drugged going into the fight given he knows how to expel poisons and drugs from his body per PoD. He also wouldn't have been hindered by the nexus either considering he was drawing on both the Light and Darkside at the time. Whatever amp the nexus provided to Vitiate would have been negligible to his overall power unless you see nexuses as a multiplier rather then an addition to what you already have.
Vitiate being greater then Nihilius trumps the combative feats you mentioned as a power comparison.
Plagueis and Sidious were merely conduits of prophecy imho.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Revan wouldn't have been drugged going into the fight given he knows how to expel poisons and drugs from his body per PoD.
Ehhh, that's fair, if we ignore rust.
He also wouldn't have been hindered by the nexus either considering he was drawing on both the Light and Darkside at the time.
Not to the same extent as Vitiate, and Revan at this point usually uses the light side.
Whatever amp the nexus provided to Vitiate would have been negligible to his overall power unless you see nexuses as a multiplier rather then an addition to what you already have.
Korriban's nexus inhibited FotJ Luke, and Vjun's empowered Dooku; there's little evidence that nexuses affect stronger characters less.
Vitiate being greater then Nihilius trumps the combative feats you mentioned as a power comparison.
That point was about direct combat feats, not guesses of raw power, which unbalancing the Force takes the cake in.
Plagueis and Sidious were merely conduits of prophecy imho.
That doesn't change the fact that they were the first to be able to actually wrestle with the Force and win.
Originally posted by The EllimistThe text specifically states that Revan opens up to both sides of the Force, making it clear that he was using the dark side same as the light, meanwhile hinting a oneness like focus, which makes his defeat a more impressive feat for Vitiate, tbh.
Revan at this point usually uses the light side.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
My case for Plagueis is:getting owned by a drug addled Revan on a dark side nexus, and only winning because he was able to charge his lightning on said nexus,
With Meetra’s help he lowered himself to the floor. His heart was pounding and his head was spinning. During the confrontation with the guard, he must have instinctively used the Force to keep the worst of the drug’s effects at bay. But he wasn’t strong enough to keep it up any longer, and now his body was responding with an acute over-reaction. Scourge stepped over to a medkit on the wall and yanked it open. He grabbed a hypodermic filled with a green luminescent fluid. “This will help,” he said, injecting it into Revan’s arm. “But it will take a few minutes.” “I have something else,” Meetra told him. “Bastila asked me to give it to you.”
Ehm....Maybe there is something I am missing here, but it sounds like that drugged up Revan would probably be fine tens of hours later.....I know I am new here, and your a expert, but unless you can tell me where I am wrong, that statement is false.
Originally posted by SiniousRevan never went into Oneness, as Revan is seen using his Force in balance techniques later on as well (Ant can tell you more about that than I can) but in SoR Revan is seen using both sides of the Force in unison. So Revan being in oneness during his fight against Vitiate is unlikely. Revan still would have been weakened for most of the fight, as he mostly used the light side during that encounter, only using the dark side for that specific attack. And Revan's alignment was light at the time as well.
The text specifically states that Revan opens up to both sides of the Force, making it clear that he was using the dark side same as the light, meanwhile hinting a oneness like focus, which makes his defeat a more impressive feat for Vitiate, tbh.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not to the same extent as Vitiate, and Revan at this point usually uses the light side.Korriban's nexus inhibited FotJ Luke, and Vjun's empowered Dooku; there's little evidence that nexuses affect stronger characters less.
That point was about direct combat feats, not guesses of raw power, which unbalancing the Force takes the cake in.
That doesn't change the fact that they were the first to be able to actually wrestle with the Force and win.
It states he was chanelling both the Dark and Lightside like twin rivers during his mediation before the fight.
Well I'm referring specifically to amps. Is there any proof that a more powerful individual is amped to the same degree as a weaker one? PoD would indicate that that's not the case since it noted Bane was more powerful in the Force then Kas'im yet Kas'im was still able to hold out for a time. If we went by your logic that disparity should have been amplified greatly to the point Kas'im should have been stomped.
Raw power is how we establish what someone is capable of in a combative sense. I didn't include unbalancing the Force because imo it's ambiguous.
But how am I supposed to quantify that? Yoda's apparently able to contend with a Sidious far more powerful then the one who helped Plagueis accomplish the task and yet I know his limits are far less then being able to effect things on a Universal scale let alone a Galactic one which is what the feat itself implies.
Originally posted by darthbane77
Revan never went into Oneness, as Revan is seen using his Force in balance techniques later on as well (Ant can tell you more about that than I can) but in SoR Revan is seen using both sides of the Force in unison. So Revan being in oneness during his fight against Vitiate is unlikely. Revan still would have been weakened for most of the fight, as he mostly used the light side during that encounter, only using the dark side for that specific attack. And Revan's alignment was light at the time as well.
There's nothing indicating that he favored one side over the other. In fact the scene prior where Revan is drawing on both sides of the Force in mediation suggest the opposite.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It states he was chanelling both the Dark and Lightside like twin rivers during his mediation before the fight.
Yeah, it mentions it for a specific attack. It doesn't mean he's drawing on the dark side constantly, and if he is, it's only half of his reserves.
Well I'm referring specifically to amps. Is there any proof that a more powerful individual is amped to the same degree as a weaker one? PoD would indicate that that's not the case since it noted Bane was more powerful in the Force then Kas'im yet Kas'im was still able to hold out for a time. If we went by your logic that disparity should have been amplified greatly to the point Kas'im should have been stomped.
Kas'im and Bane were both dark siders, so the nexus would roughly cancel.
Raw power is how we establish what someone is capable of in a combative sense. I didn't include unbalancing the Force because imo it's ambiguous.
How's it ambiguous?
1. It shows that Plagueis and Sidious were a greater threat to the Force than Vitiate was.
2. It's something Vitiate certainly would've benefited from if he were capable of doing it.
3. It was done on their raw power, since they were just meditating and wrestling with it.
4. It's reasonable to conclude that doing this with the Force itself would require lots of power.
But how am I supposed to quantify that? Yoda's apparently able to contend with a Sidious far more powerful then the one who helped Plagueis accomplish the task and yet I know his limits are far less then being able to effect things on a Universal scale let alone a Galactic one which is what the feat itself implies.
In the absence of all other evidence it would be reasonable to suggest that Yoda was below Plagueis for that reason. But he has stalemated Sidious, so we can't just ignore that.
By your logic, we should conclude that pre-Nathema Vitiate > novel Vitiate because the former's Nathema feat is more impressive than anything he does in the novel.