Darth Plagueis/Palpatine's Meditation War Never Created Anakin Skywalker

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're making his argument sound retarded when it really isn't. Some of the things he has claimed are definitely questionable but more than anything else the point he was putting across since the beginning is not at all farfetched. In fact I am awaiting an argument proving those other galactic scale factors wouldn't be factors at all.

You made like two threads exulting Vitiate for his galaxy-ritual that only needed open galactic war, a powerful nexus, and like billions (prob more like quadrillions) of simultaneous deaths, but try to mitigate another feat because maybe some political corruption (lol) helped it.

Frankly, the fact he had to deal with over half of your brigade at once and et his argument is still standing says a lot.

It isn't still standing, it's been thoroughly humiliated. He backtracked multiple times on his position, completely abandoned his original obsessing over dates, hilariously claimed that you can't make assumptions when explaining things (when we do that for literally every theory ever made), and then went on incoherent rants about how you need ">100% certainty" to use something in a debate.

I'm sorry, Ant's good, but he lost here. And he's not doing the Vitiate brigade any favors.

If you're going to actually debate him on the actual premise of his argument, don't bombard him with posts. That honestly looks really desperate, when we all know you could actually debate him properly instead of condescendingly demeaning a perfectly viable stance on his part.

Well you're trying to play cheerleader for your harshest critic by pretending that his primary position is that other factors contributed to the unbalancing, which he says occasionally but clearly isn't the only, or primary, claim that he's making.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That only further proves his point, depending upon interpretation. Sidious' mere existence could have necessitated Anakin..

Well for one thing that would concede your whole Valkorion > Sidious claim, but it doesn't seem to address the remarkable "coincidence" that a Forceful being is conceived right around when Sidious and Plagueis were messing with the Force and trying and failing to conceive said being.

Originally posted by AncientPower

Frankly, the fact he had to deal with over half of your brigade at once and et his argument is still standing says a lot. If you're going to actually debate him on the actual premise of his argument, don't bombard him with posts. That honestly looks really desperate, when we all know you could actually debate him properly instead of condescendingly demeaning a perfectly viable stance on his part.

I'd feel bad about that if I felt there was any intent for valid discussion here, but this is a trash agenda-pushing thread which was bound to result in a war of attrition from the moment it was posted. Maybe you feel differently, but people trying to pass off dishonest positions to snake their way through debates annoys me, so my reaction is to immediately stamp it out.

Didn't it say that Anakin was conceived from The Force itself?

As an act to counter Plaguies and Palpatine?

This is kinda reaching really hard Ant.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You made like two threads exulting Vitiate for his galaxy-ritual that only needed open galactic war, a powerful nexus, and like billions (prob more like quadrillions) of simultaneous deaths, but try to mitigate another feat because maybe some political corruption (lol) helped it.

I proved all three of those things are false, or were you once again not paying attention?

My eyes kind of glazed over while reading all of this, but a thought occurs: If Anakin himself was the imbalance, then couldn't he have restored balance through his redemption? By killing the Sith and turning away from the darkness within himself, he eliminates all evil and thus brings balance in himself, thus restoring balance in the galaxy. If he was indeed the source of the imbalance.

So I come back to find Ant's conceded various points and his credibility in tatters.

Very good. 🙂

Originally posted by Nephthys
My eyes kind of glazed over while reading all of this, but a thought occurs: If Anakin himself was the imbalance, then couldn't he have restored balance through his redemption? By killing the Sith and turning away from the darkness within himself, he eliminates all evil and thus brings balance in himself, thus restoring balance in the galaxy. If he was indeed the source of the imbalance.

Didn't Plagueis create him in one of his experiments or something?

Yes.

What? No.

So I've skimmed through this thread somewhat. Again, I don't find Ant's timeline argument persuasive (clearly goes beyond the intent of the author), but the more I see people defend the "Plagueis/Palpatine meditation" argument, I find it even less persuasive.

Supposing Anakin was created as a result of Plagueis and Palpatine's meditation, what difference does it make exactly? At the end of the day, Anakin didn't bring balance to the force by "ragdolling", "stomping" or "slaughterhousing" anybody. Rather, he was simply present at a pivotal moment and made the "right" decision at said moment; the force created a guy who got crippled due to his own stupidity and ultimately and slowly threw an unsuspecting old man down a trash chute. That's how the force was balanced. Had absolutely nothing to do with power levels. So why should we honestly believe the unbalancing was truly any different? Hell, Anakin didn't even have anything to do with Plagueis death (which wasn't the result of power levels either), so all I'm seeing is a lot of baseless conjecture.

This "Plagueis/Palpatine meditation" argument is just not compelling, relies on a lot of speculation and disregard of the narrative. It's even less persuasive than the "Revan is the heart of the force!" argument. Useless and unquantifiable for these hypothetical "who will win" scenarios.

It doesn't matter how Anakin brought about the balance, and he could have indeed done through combative means, the point is the Force created a practically divine being to oppose Plagueis and Palpatine, an unprecedented intervention which reflects their immense cosmological threat.

Wars debaters and their insistence on these hyperbolic statements suggests to me very little growth overall and just an utter and complete dependence on cherry picking quotes to support their faves. What's hilarious is so many claim to be so intelligent yet fall within the same sheep mindset of look how impressive this and that is when it clearly is being exaggerated.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It doesn't matter how Anakin brought about the balance, and he could have indeed done through combative means, the point is the Force created a practically divine being to oppose Plagueis and Palpatine, an unprecedented intervention which reflects their immense cosmological threat.

Using hindsight, we have a different reason for Anakin's divine potential. It was this potential that sparked Plagueis and Palpatine's interest in Anakin. Palpatine made Anakin the center of his plans due to his potential. This turned out to be his undoing. Anakin became Palpatine's apprentice, the events of the OT occurred and Anakin was in a position he otherwise would not have been in where he was able to make the right choice and end Palpatine's life while his guard was down. Subtle, but effective.

Now your implying the Force is capable of strategy, but in the absence of any evidence it's a sentient being that seems unlikely.

Seems to me that Anakin was simply destined to restore balance to the Force, and any attempt to subvert that course would only lead to it being realised in another way.

Regardless you make a fair point that Anakin was not necessarily created to defeat the Sith in combat, and therefore his power doesn't necessarily reflect their combative ability. More likely, when we remove the idea that the Force is a sentient schemer plotting to repair its own proverbial timeline, Anakin's vast potential is probably just a reflection of what he is, an unavoidable by product of a being borne purely of the Force.

However that only brings us back to the fundamental point, the Force made Anakin in the most literal of ways, Anakin is the most direct instrument of its "will" in galactic history. Which remains a reflection of the equally unprecedented threat Plagueis and Sidious posed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You made like two threads exulting Vitiate for his galaxy-ritual that only needed open galactic war, a powerful nexus, and like billions (prob more like quadrillions) of simultaneous deaths, but try to mitigate another feat because maybe some political corruption (lol) helped it.

Stop being mean to our resident millionaire.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
It matters a great deal how the balance was achieved since your position is that the unbalancing is a testament to how powerful Plagueis and Palpatine were (or for our purposes, how well either can do in combat). The only way your argument works is if the force created Anakin to come in and do the standard versus forum shenanigans that gets discussed here daily. That's not what happened..

Using hindsight, we have a different reason for Anakin's divine potential. It was this potential that sparked Plagueis and Palpatine's interest in Anakin. Palpatine made Anakin the center of his plans due to his potential. This turned out to be his undoing. Anakin became Palpatine's apprentice, the events of the OT occurred and Anakin was in a position he otherwise would not have been in where he was able to make the right choice and end Palpatine's life while his guard was down. Subtle, but effective.

The point is still that the Force didn't bother with Valkorion. I guess you could argue that threat posed isn't the same as power, but in this case the duo were unbalancing the Force through sheer strength in the Force.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is still that the Force didn't bother with Valkorion. I guess you could argue that threat posed isn't the same as power, but in this case the duo were unbalancing the Force through sheer strength in the Force.