Trump's First 100 Day Plans Released

Originally posted by Surtur
What is "considerably more" to you?

On top of that, do you feel it would be selfish of me if I wanted to keep legal Americans out of certain jobs just so certain goods are cheaper?

Since we can laugh about "der illegals taking our jobs" all we want, but there is definitely truth there. It's a cycle. Illegals are..illegal, they need work badly. So very badly they are willing to be paid much much less than minimum wage. Now come in the greedy businessmen. They love their illegal labor force because they can pay them shit pay without any real benefits.

Then some very asinine people spread this myth that legal Americans just plain won't do any kind of physical labor jobs. As if everyone who is a legal citizen is just holding out for cushy office jobs or something..as opposed to just a job willing to pay a decent wage for some genuine hard work.

I know legal people who literally shovel shit for a living at the zoo. But f*ck those lazy bastards I guess. How dare they want a decent wage for busting their ass. All that's important is that the illegals want a better life for themselves. Legal Americans could give a shit about better lives.

It's not that Americans won't do certain jobs. They'd do them for more money which means the costs would be passed on. We're also not just taking about greedy big businesses employing cheaper labour. We're talking small businesses such as gardeners or cleaning firms. So you either pay more for those services to employ US citizens or you do the work yourself.

I wonder how many undocumented workers work as maids in Trump's hotelsO

Originally posted by jaden101
It's not that Americans won't do certain jobs. They'd do them for more money which means the costs would be passed on. We're also not just taking about greedy big businesses employing cheaper labour. We're talking small businesses such as gardeners or cleaning firms. So you either pay more for those services to employ US citizens or you do the work yourself.

I wonder how many undocumented workers work as maids in Trump's hotelsO

Yes but we're dancing around the issue though. Do you not think it says anything negative that we want to keep this illegal labor force..in force, just so goods are cheaper?

Not only does it take some jobs away from Americans, but it exploits the hell out of the illegals.

So hold on though, if we suddenly made all these illegal workers legal..that would mean they could no longer be paid shit wages under the table..and yet that is the SOLE purpose people use them, because of how cheap it is.

So are we really saying we just want to keep a certain percentage of illegals..always illegal? Or how does this even work? If we'd run into all these issues getting rid of the illegal work force..how do we avoid those same issues without continually exploiting these people?

You start by only using services or buying from places that don't employ illegal workers. You do a bit of research on the source of your food so it's not from farms that employ illegals or from food processing plants that employ them.

You don't ask gardeners or electricians or plumbers to do jobs for cash off the books so it's cheaper

You only stay at hotels or eat in restaurants that employ legal citizens.

Unless you move your money and get others to do the same them there's no incentive for people and businesses to not employ illegals.

Hitting profits is the only thing some people react to.

Originally posted by jaden101
You start by only using services or buying from places that don't employ illegal workers. You do a bit of research on the source of your food so it's not from farms that employ illegals or from food processing plants that employ them.

You don't ask gardeners or electricians or plumbers to do jobs for cash off the books so it's cheaper

You only stay at hotels or eat in restaurants that employ legal citizens.

Unless you move your money and get others to do the same them there's no incentive for people and businesses to not employ illegals.

Hitting profits is the only thing some people react to.

I agree with a lot of these things, but I'm not sure how people are supposed to know which places have illegal workers and which places pay people in cash off the books. Since businesses generally do not advertise that kind of thing.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yes but we're dancing around the issue though. Do you not think it says anything negative that we want to keep this illegal labor force..in force, just so goods are cheaper?

Not only does it take some jobs away from Americans, but it exploits the hell out of the illegals.

So hold on though, if we suddenly made all these illegal workers legal..that would mean they could no longer be paid shit wages under the table..and yet that is the SOLE purpose people use them, because of how cheap it is.

So are we really saying we just want to keep a certain percentage of illegals..always illegal? Or how does this even work? If we'd run into all these issues getting rid of the illegal work force..how do we avoid those same issues without continually exploiting these people?

So do you support increasing the minimum wage? Because the argument is essentially identical.

Originally posted by Surtur
I agree with a lot of these things, but I'm not sure how people are supposed to know which places have illegal workers and which places pay people in cash off the books. Since businesses generally do not advertise that kind of thing.

Ask

Originally posted by Surtur
It's not that I don't care, but do you think there is even the smallest chance that perhaps the people should have thought about the consequences of coming here illegally and what might happen if they are caught..before they do it?

Of course, and they took the gamble. ...that doesn't mean they wouldn't be scared.

If I decided to rob a bank without even entertaining the possibility I might end up in jail, you'd call me stupid. You'd say nobody held a gun to my head and forced me to rob a bank.

It's not just the undocumented immigrants, it's also their children, who didn't exactly choose to violate immigration policy.

I don't see a response to the fears of the LGBT community, Muslims, legal immigrants, etc. I've already had friends who've been targets of racial slurs from Trump supporters, and I suspect that's going to continue to be a problem now that we've empowered that lower part of the gene pool.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So do you support increasing the minimum wage? Because the argument is essentially identical.

I don't necessarily support that. We'd just be taking a different route to ultimately the same destination. I can't pretend to know how to fix this or if it even can be fixed.

It's not just the undocumented immigrants, it's also their children, who didn't exactly choose to violate immigration policy.

Fair enough.

don't see a response to the fears of the LGBT community, Muslims, legal immigrants, etc. I've already had friends who've been targets of racial slurs from Trump supporters, and I suspect that's going to continue to be a problem now that we've empowered that lower part of the gene pool. [/B]

What specifically do legal immigrants have to be afraid of? As for your friends who got called racial slurs, that is unfortunate, but do you think the people who did that would have refrained from doing it if Trump had lost?

As for the gay community, keep in mind I haven't heard every single thing Trump has said during the last 18 months. Is this about gay marriage?

As for Muslims, like I said I haven't heard 100% of the things Trump has said because lets face it..the man does talk and tweet a lot. I know he talked about temporarily banning Muslims from entering the country. I know he(or one of this aides) went on to then amend that by saying he wanted to temporarily prevent any Muslim who couldn't be vetted from entering the country.

Originally posted by Surtur
Fair enough.

That explains a significant fraction of those demonstrating.

What specifically do legal immigrants have to be afraid of?

Tighter restrictions on legal immigration.

As for your friends who got called racial slurs, that is unfortunate, but do you think the people who did that would have refrained from doing it if Trump had lost?

They'd have the protection of a non-xenophobic government.

As for the gay community, keep in mind I haven't heard every single thing Trump has said during the last 18 months. Is this about gay marriage?

Trump himself is probably the least anti-gay republican candidate in history. But the same can't be said of his VP, his congress, or his potential cabinet.

As for Muslims, like I said I haven't heard 100% of the things Trump has said because lets face it..the man does talk and tweet a lot. I know he talked about temporarily banning Muslims from entering the country. I know he(or one of this aides) went on to then amend that by saying he wanted to temporarily prevent any Muslim who couldn't be vetted from entering the country.

The big problem is just that, a) you may see Trump supporters being empowered to lash out against Muslims or anyone who sort of looks like they could be Muslim, and b) there could very well be a slippery slope into targeting Muslims already here. Trump did want a database of them, and when asked how this differs from the Nazi's database of Jews, just said "you tell me".

Every politician ever has been compared to Hitler before, but I honestly think that the parallels here are reasonable to draw. The Muslim ban/scapegoating, "make America great again", anti-immigrant rhetoric, complaints about the "establishment" and rigged elections, encouraging voters to vote twice, etc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Surtur, I know you might not care because this doesn't really affect you, but there are undocumented immigrants, family of undocumented immigrants, Muslims and even legal immigrants who legitimately have a lot to fear from him. I mean, he does want to gut DAPA and curb h1b's, and he is fully capable of doing both.

They should properly register.

The legal ones should have nothing to fear.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So? If they're undocumented, they should be fearful.

It's also about their children, who obviously didn't choose to break immigration policy.

They should properly register.

You're a moron. Muslim immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than the general population.

The legal ones should have nothing to fear.

Wrong. Donald Trump wants to place restrictions on legal immigration too. Likewise, his followers aren't very good at making sure that the people they're insulting aren't there legally.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's also about their children, who obviously didn't choose to break immigration policy.

The burden is on the family now, not the people.

You're a moron. Muslim immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than the general population.

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/crime-by-merkel-muslims-in-germany-went-up-by-79-last-year/

mmm

Wrong. Donald Trump wants to place restrictions on legal immigration too.

Good. Our priorities should be on Americans, not those from other countries. It should be hard to get into the United States.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
They'd have the protection of a non-xenophobic government.

What sort of protections? I don't think Trump has ever advocated for targeting Muslims(or any group) for hate crimes.

Trump himself is probably the least anti-gay republican candidate in history. But the same can't be said of his VP, his congress, or his potential cabinet.

Okay but what specifically do the anti-gays want to do to the gay community? Besides getting rid of gay marriage.

The big problem is just that, a) you may see Trump supporters being empowered to lash out against Muslims or anyone who sort of looks like they could be Muslim, and b) there could very well be a slippery slope into targeting Muslims already here. Trump did want a database of them, and when asked how this differs from the Nazi's database of Jews, just said "you tell me".

I agree it's a slippery slope. I have a serious question when it comes to the Jews vs Muslims. We both know there are some people who follow Islam who are terrorists. It's not a vast percentage of them, but it is there. We also both know that you can find terrorists from most kinds of groups if you look back far enough. Was there an extremist part of the Jewish population that had comparable numbers to what we are seeing from modern day Islamic terrorists?

Let me keep in mind I'm NOT saying that made it even the slightest bit okay what Hitler did, I'm just trying to see if the comparison should truly be made to Muslims.

Every politician ever has been compared to Hitler before, but I honestly think that the parallels here are reasonable to draw. The Muslim ban/scapegoating, "make America great again", anti-immigrant rhetoric, complaints about the "establishment" and rigged elections, encouraging voters to vote twice, etc.

I will admit thinking about it I do find some parallels as well. One of which IMO is timing. Hitler came along at a time in history where the German people were so desperate for change they were willing to follow anyone who promised to fix things.

I feel like unfortunately we played a part in setting the stage for his rise to power and it seems we have done the same thing with Trump.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then it's the fault of the parents for putting their children in a poor situation.

The burden is on the family now, not the people.

Except that the government is the one doing the active deporting, and a Western democratic republic presumably doesn't do guilt by association.

Also where's the statue of limitation here, like we have for almost every crime? Should we deport everyone except for Native Americans?

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/crime-by-merkel-muslims-in-germany-went-up-by-79-last-year/

mmm

The first stat is incredibly unreliable given that most rapes aren't reported, and the second is not about American Muslims (and there's data on them, but you're mysteriously not using that).

BTW, a lot of those rape victims are probably Muslim women, but you want them to "register" too. mmm

Good. Our priorities should be on Americans, not those from other countries. It should be hard to get into the United States.

You're hilariously naive. Even ignoring the "America-first" mentality that I know you're not going to justify, immigrants are incredibly important to our nation's growth.

- they were all of this year's American nobel prize winners
- they're more than a third of Silicon Valley
- they're most of our graduate programs
- they were behind the Manhattan project and NASA
- second generation immigrants founded Google, Intel, etc.

Now you're just assuming that if we were to get rid of them, Americans would fill the gaps. This is demonstrably not true. There is a shortage in, for example, highly skilled technical workers that isn't just going to get filled by magic if we get rid of immigrants. The fact of the matter is that highly skilled immigrants is a significant reason for why we're the world's superpower, given that most of our most important technological and scientific achievements can be attributed to first or second generations. And if "natural born" Americans could do that all by themselves, well, they had even more opportunity to, and conveniently did not.

Originally posted by Surtur
What sort of protections? I don't think Trump has ever advocated for targeting Muslims(or any group) for hate crimes.

Well, not directly, but his supporters still do it, and I don't see him doing much about it.

Okay but what specifically do the anti-gays want to do to the gay community? Besides getting rid of gay marriage.

That, rolling back anti-discrimination laws, rolling back campaigns to combat cyber bullying and other such protections, and also just the general optical and cultural effect that the political climate of the government has on the climate of our schools and workplaces.

I agree it's a slippery slope. I have a serious question when it comes to the Jews vs Muslims. We both know there are some people who follow Islam who are terrorists. It's not a vast percentage of them, but it is there. We also both know that you can find terrorists from most kinds of groups if you look back far enough. Was there an extremist part of the Jewish population that had comparable numbers to what we are seeing from modern day Islamic terrorists?

Let me keep in mind I'm NOT saying that made it even the slightest bit okay what Hitler did, I'm just trying to see if the comparison should truly be made to Muslims.

Well the main accusation was that the Jews controlled the banks and a bunch of things. Hitler also accused them of starting communism or something.

I will admit thinking about it I do find some parallels as well. One of which IMO is timing. Hitler came along at a time in history where the German people were so desperate for change they were willing to follow anyone who promised to fix things.

I feel like unfortunately we played a part in setting the stage for his rise to power and it seems we have done the same thing with Trump.

Right. And though you may think Hillary is corrupt, there's no reasonable path to her being another Hitler.

Here is some interesting clarifications and analysis on Trump's plans.

Okay so let's talk about protesting for a second. I've said before I think people have a right to a peaceful protest. No, they do not have the right to block freeways or injure cops or any of that. But this isn't about the non-peaceful stuff.

So when it comes to peaceful protesting, I think they have the right, but my question is..should they be protesting? Now before anyone freaks out and says something along the lines of "oh so you don't think they have any worthy reasons to protest?" that is not what I am saying at all.

What I'm asking is, despite those valid reasons, is this for the best? The only reason I ask is that it has become increasingly clear over the past few days how divided this country is. You can just look and see how rural people voted when compared to urban people.

So with that in mind, does anyone think it is possible that even peaceful protests might serve to widen the divide among Americans even more? Since some activists have seemed to imply they are basically going to protest this presidency..for the entire term. Which is their right, but should they be doing it?

Followup: is setting American flags on fire really the best way to go about this?