Explaining Tyranus in Canon

Just recalling a point made from an old discussion.

TCW S6 seems to suggest that Dooku had taken the name "Tyranus" by the end of TPM, and possibly before, although it's never said to be "Darth Tyranus" specifically.

Since Maul was still Sidious' apprentice by then, and Canon doesn't have Sidious foreseeing Maul's demise like in Legends, what does this mean? Did Sidious train Dooku as some sort of reserve, or did he christen him as a Sith Lord even before Maul's tenure as his apprentice had expired?

For the record, TCW S6 is technically Legends as well, and Palpatine discloses in Legends that he foresaw Maul's demise (although that's kind of retconned). If you think Legends also deserves an explanation, go ahead and provide one. I'm mostly interested in Canon, though.

He probably trained Dooku as an acolyte knowing that while he was more powerful then Maul by that point in time Maul still had far greater potential ( with the lower half of his body still intact ) and would surpass Dooku in due time.

I'm not sure missing the lower half of his body really mattered tbh, considering he isn't far off from Dooku in canon during SoD, and canon has Vader with his "more powerful than he ever was as a Jedi" quote during LOTS and he tears shit up in the Marvel comics, and he is more man than machine.

He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm not sure missing the lower half of his body really mattered tbh

It does. Midichlorians determine potential and they're contained in cells which are contained within body mass.

Vader being more powerful then Anakin is simply because he learned how to harness his rage. If he'd known how to do that with his potential he would have been even greater.

Originally posted by ares834
He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

👆 This too.

Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

Yeh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

I, mean, I guess it's possible. But considering he is running around calling himself "Tyranus" I've got my doubts that he wasn't a Sith at the time.

Nah, "Tyranus" is a typical name for a politican. 👆

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It does. Midichlorians determine potential and they're contained in cells which are contained within body mass.

Vader being more powerful then Anakin is simply because he learned how to harness his rage. If he'd known how to do that with his potential he would have been even greater.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku may have been an associate of Palpatine's for political reasons, but not his apprentice?

Would he adopt the name "Tyranus" just for that? Sounds... unlikely.

I also question if he would do things such as murder his old friend Sifo-Dyas unless he had committed to the Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
He probably realized that Dooku would serve far better as head of the CIS than Maul. Maul may have made a good warlord, but he was never presented as a charismatic leader like Dooku is who was capable of swaying entire Star Systems to his cause merely through speeches.

Furthermore, the CIS leader being an ex-Jedi would help stir up anti-Jedi sentiment throughout the Republic.

Sounds like you're suggesting that Sidious was training Dooku to replace Maul as his apprentice?

I mean, the main thing I'm looking for here is a reason for Dooku to adopt the name "Tyranus" so early on.

My thoughts are the same as they were before. Maul had the Darth title as well as the title of apprentice during TPM, Tyranus is only known to possess the Sith moniker, and it's only post-TPM that people start referring to him as Darth Tyranus (like the Kaminoans), and its only post-TPM that Sidious states that Maul has been replaced.

Ultimately Dooku was an incredibly powerful Force user with anti-Jedi sentiments and immense political influence, it would be entirely remiss for Palpatine to not exploit such an opportunity simply because he already had an Sith apprentice in Maul. The practical move would be to enlist him into the Sith as indeed an agent, without making in a proper Sith Lord, while simply giving him a Sith moniker to both represent his allegiance and to masquerade under. This is not unheard of at least in Legends, think Bane & Venamis.

Then when you consider on top of that that at least in regards to Canon, Maul is the far younger and with the potential to be more powerful, and Dooku doesn't make sense as anything other than a short term investment, not a replacement for his carefully selected and trained Sith disciple.

Canon has also put a lid on the debate as to whether Sidious really adhered to the Rule of Two or not, he did:

So under those circumstances having two apprentices at once is a no no. But ultimately Sheev remains ever the opportunist.

A well-explained thesis. But when do the Kaminoans refer to him as Darth Tyranus? Jango calls him "Darth Tyranus" in the AotC script, but in the film itself, it was just "Tyranus".

Also, I'm told that somewhere in Canon, Dooku got the title "Darth Tyranus" immediately upon meeting with Sidious?

Ah, Kaminoans in TCW call him "Lord Tyranus". I assume that's what you mean (I was previously assuming you meant AotC, for some reason).

I did find this on the SW website:

After the unexpected loss of his apprentice Darth Maul, Palpatine recruited Count Dooku and dubbed him Darth Tyranus.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/5-times-palpatine-was-right

I also found these:

Jango Fett was the most infamous bounty hunter in the galaxy. Hearing of his exploits, Darth Tyranus recruited the bounty hunter to be the template for a great clone army.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/from-a-certain-point-of-view-which-fett-is-best

While droid armies would swarm the battlefields during the Invasion of Naboo and during the Clone Wars, their opponents were the clone troopers created on Kamino on behalf of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and Darth Tyranus.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/from-boonta-to-baobab-droids-and-the-star-wars-prequels

The political idealist would eventually fall under the sway of Darth Sidious and agreed to train as Darth Tyranus.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/hidden-knowledge-5-fascinating-facts-about-the-jedi-temple

So Tyranus was already a Darth at this point, but he wasn't actually recruited until after Maul's loss. In other words, the Oba Diah/Sifo-Dyas business was after TPM, just in the same year.

Come to think of it, what was the evidence that Dooku approached Sidious/adopted the name of Tyranus before the end of TPM, anyway?

EDIT: Just saw your second response, however according to Pablo those blogs are not Canon. And the dating is indisputable given that these events happened under Valorum, not Palpatine, who is replaced during the Naboo Crisis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
A well-explained thesis. But when do the Kaminoans refer to him as Darth Tyranus? Jango calls him "Darth Tyranus" in the AotC script, but in the film itself, it was just "Tyranus".

Also, I'm told that somewhere in Canon, Dooku got the title "Darth Tyranus" immediately upon meeting with Sidious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_xAF-WEcs&t=1m51s

Also note how the Neimodians refer to Sidious as "Lord Sidious" and I believe Sidious introduces his apprentice as "Darth" Maul. I guess Fett is an exception here, which introduces the idea that it could be a matter of preference, or maybe he kept secret his allegiances.

And I looked at the Databank and it says that "Dooku voluntarily left the light side behind and became Darth Sidious' dark side disciple, taking the secret name Darth Tyranus and leading the Separatist army." Which yeah strongly suggests that, but as a generalised statement I feel there is some wiggle room here.

Interesting something from The Lost One biography gallery about something I'd forgotten, namely that in the episode there is mention of Sifo-Dyas being accompanied by a second Jedi before his death. But the identity of this Jedi is never revealed and instead suspiciously ambigious:

I can't think of what this detail could have been there for other than to indicate the presence of Dooku, who may have not left yet the Order. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In TCW, specifically they call him "Lord" Tyranus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_xAF-WEcs&t=1m51s

He doesn't have a reason to call himself "Darth" in front of them.

Also note how the Neimodians refer to Sidious as "Lord Sidious" and I believe Sidious introduces his apprentice as "Darth" Maul. I guess Fett is an exception here, which introduces the idea that it could be a matter of preference, or maybe he kept secret his allegiances.

Sidious is likely the better comparison here. Also, in the films, "Lord" and "Darth" are used interchangeably. Vader is often referred to as Lord rather than Darth.

And I looked at the Databank and it says that "Dooku voluntarily left the light side behind and became Darth Sidious' dark side disciple, taking the secret name Darth Tyranus and leading the Separatist army." Which yeah strongly suggests that, but as a generalised statement I feel there is some wiggle room here.

There's no wriggle room. The sources I posted above confirm him as Darth Tyranus.

Interesting something from The Lost One biography gallery about something I'd forgotten, namely that in the episode there is mention of Sifo-Dyas being accompanied by a second Jedi before his death. But the identity of this Jedi is never revealed and instead suspiciously ambigious:

I can't think of what this detail could have been there for other than to indicate the presence of Dooku, who may have not left yet the Order. mmm

That seems to align with my first quote about Dooku being inducted into the Sith Order only after Maul's death.

The only other explanation I could've offered was that Dooku temporarily played the role of double agent. He would've been christened as Darth Tyranus but stayed in the Order briefly for that one final mission.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Just saw your second response, however according to Pablo those blogs are not Canon. And the dating is indisputable given that these events happened under Valorum, not Palpatine, who is replaced during the Naboo Crisis.

Fair enough on the dating.

As for canonicity, I figured that, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate everything in them. I assume they'd be written using canonical information, no less. Just that judgments in there are non-canon.

If you want canon quotes, there's this:

This episode marks the moment when the Jedi finally discover Dooku's Sith name of Tyranus.

-- http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/the-lost-one-trivia-gallery

Which means that Dooku was definitely a Sith by the time of the Oba Diah operation. So we're back to square one.

Well yeah but we are dealing with a sensitive topic here, of which the details are ambiguous, a layman, or even an informed SW enthusiast, could easily have overlooked the revelations in this episode.

And I saw that, but again Sith =/= Sith Lord. Venamis is a Sith name as well, so is Bane. It represents their (and his) affiliation with the Sith. I mean, its not just a nickname, clearly.

There is also context to consider as well, by the point of this discovery, Tyranus was Dooku's Sith name in every sense of the word.