Explaining Tyranus in Canon

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yeah but we are dealing with a sensitive topic here, of which the details are ambiguous, a layman, or even an informed SW enthusiast, could easily have overlooked the revelations in this episode.

Perhaps.

And I saw that, but again Sith =/= Sith Lord. Venamis is a Sith name as well, so is Bane. It represents their (and his) affiliation with the Sith. I mean, its not just a nickname, clearly.

Tenebrous was training Venamis to kill and replace Plagueis, and Bane was a Lord by the time he created the Rule of Two.

My question was mostly about why Dooku had the name Tyranus already, but also what the implications of that were. Sidious inducting Dooku as a Sith is a violation of the Rule of Two, just as Tenebrous training Venamis was. If you're comparing Tyranus to Venamis, that would mean that you think Sidious wanted Dooku to replace Maul, which doesn't make much sense as far as potential goes.

Although, as Ares said, Sidious may have wanted Dooku to replace Maul anyway because of his charismatic ability. Personally, I find that that theory only operates under the assumption that Sheev was already aware of Anakin and had set his sights on him, so he realized that Maul was ultimately expendable (which is stated on the SW website as well). Dooku was also expendable, of course, but at least he would've been able to initiate the Clone Wars and serve as the public face of the Sith. And since Sidious was planning for Anakin all along, it really wouldn't matter what Maul's potential was since he'd never be able to attain it before Anakin grew old enough to be indoctrinated into the Sith Order, at which point he'd just be a better version of Maul.

In other words, it's possible that Sidious found them both expendable by this point but considered Dooku more useful to his plans until he could get Anakin to become his apprentice - hence he began cultivating Dooku for apprenticeship over Maul.

That's for Canon. In Legends, he foresaw Maul's demise on Naboo according to Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, which means that he probably trained Dooku to become Maul's inevitable replacement as the Sith apprentice.

There is also context to consider as well, by the point of this discovery, Tyranus was Dooku's Sith name in every sense of the word.

I'm pretty sure the quote means that Tyranus was a Sith name from the get go, not just an alias adopted by the Count which ended up becoming a Sith name.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tenebrous was training Venamis to kill and replace Plagueis, and Bane was a Lord by the time he created the Rule of Two.

My question was mostly about why Dooku had the name Tyranus already, but also what the implications of that were. Sidious inducting Dooku as a Sith is a violation of the Rule of Two, just as Tenebrous training Venamis was. If you're comparing Tyranus to Venamis, that would mean that you think Sidious wanted Dooku to replace Maul, which doesn't make much sense as far as potential goes.

Although, as Ares said, Sidious may have wanted Dooku to replace Maul anyway because of his charismatic ability. Personally, I find that that theory only operates under the assumption that Sheev was already aware of Anakin and had set his sights on him, so he realized that Maul was ultimately expendable (which is stated on the SW website as well). Dooku was also expendable, of course, but at least he would've been able to initiate the Clone Wars and serve as the public face of the Sith. And since Sidious was planning for Anakin all along, it really wouldn't matter what Maul's potential was since he'd never be able to attain it before Anakin grew old enough to be indoctrinated into the Sith Order, at which point he'd just be a better version of Maul.

In other words, it's possible that Sidious found them both expendable by this point but considered Dooku more useful to his plans until he could get Anakin to become his apprentice - hence he began cultivating Dooku for apprenticeship over Maul.

That's for Canon. In Legends, he foresaw Maul's demise on Naboo according to Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, which means that he probably trained Dooku to become Maul's inevitable replacement as the Sith apprentice.

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Also...

Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't have a reason to call himself "Darth" in front of them.

Sidious is likely the better comparison here. Also, in the films, "Lord" and "Darth" are used interchangeably. Vader is often referred to as Lord rather than Darth.

That seems to align with my first quote about Dooku being inducted into the Sith Order only after Maul's death.

The only other explanation I could've offered was that Dooku temporarily played the role of double agent. He would've been christened as Darth Tyranus but stayed in the Order briefly for that one final mission.

But the point is that it suggests that instead of being a fully fledged Sith, Dooku remained very much between worlds.

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Also, another spanner to throw in the works here:

This is kind of kinda inaccurate though, as Dooku had already been recruited and at the very least had adopted the name Tyranus. However, if we simply omit that word, the quote functions with my reading, as he was not necessarily of the ranks of the Banite line.

I think it's pretty simple, in Legends or Canon.

1. Sidious didn't train a guy he stole from one of his most powerful allies (making a rival of her in the process) for 20 years as the second half of the Rule of Two, while lying to and hiding his development from Plagueis, who as he was killing mocked because Maul was now his apprentice... just so he could replaced by Dooku on a whim. Dooku who was about 70 by TPM, and would be surpassed before long. Doesn't make sense.

2. Everything in TPM happened concurrently, so there was no pre-planning for Sidious. A number of sources contradict The Essential Guide (which, along with the Book of Sith, seem to have a bias narrative against Maul), such as the Darth Plagueis novel, the Episode I Journal and others. Not to mention current canon.

3. Sidious certainly kept an eye on Dooku with thoughts of using him politically, and taking him on as an acolyte, but it's only when Maul is presumed dead that he actually takes him as a short-term apprentice.

4. Likewise, it's only around the time Maul is dead that Sidious realises what Anakin is and could become. He didn't "always know".

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bane adopted his Sith name upon joining the Brotherhood, I'm pretty sure. But the point is that you can have a Sith name without being a Darth or an apprentice. That's really the main thrust of this argument.

The Brotherhood isn't a comparable system to the Rule of Two. The Brotherhood had no limits on who was a Sith.

Under Bane's Rule of Two, training any additional apprentice is a direct violation. There can't be more than two Sith. That's the dilemma here.

Well my argument is the same, he was a Sith agent, but not a Sith Lord. Sidious was being opportunistic and Dooku needed a secret (Sithy) identity to masquerade under.

Even if he weren't a Sith Lord, it'd be a violation of the Rule of Two.

Somewhat beggars belief that Sidious would have found Anakin before the Jedi did though, i.e. before TPM, if that was the case, surely he would have spirited him away immediately.

Plagueis tried that but failed.

Well in Legends several sources, most explicitly Darth Plagueis, make clear that Sidious inducted Dooku after Maul's death.

I know. That's why I said the Essential Guide quote is kind of retconned, since Sidious clearly didn't foresee Maul's death in DP.

Also...
Yeah that's my point, the use of Lord indicates his Darth status.

Ah.

A potential explanation, though it seems to me that cutting ties with the Jedi entirely might be necessary to be a proper Dark Lord.

Which is why he killed Sifo-Dyas in that same mission.

Also, another spanner to throw in the works here:

This is kind of kinda inaccurate though, as Dooku had already been recruited and at the very least had adopted the name Tyranus. However, if we simply omit that word, the quote functions with my reading, as he was not necessarily of the ranks of the Banite line.

I don't know if Sidious would be willing to name someone a Sith outside of the Banite line.

Originally posted by ILS
I think it's pretty simple, in Legends or Canon.

1. Sidious didn't train a guy he stole from one of his most powerful allies (making a rival of her in the process) for 20 years as the second half of the Rule of Two, while lying to and hiding his development from Plagueis, who as he was killing mocked because Maul was now his apprentice... just so he could replaced by Dooku on a whim. Dooku who was about 70 by TPM, and would be surpassed before long. Doesn't make sense.

That depends on whether Sidious felt Maul had fulfilled his purpose and that he needed somebody else to engineer the next part of his Grand Plan. Certainly, Maul's potential eclipses Dooku's, but if Sidious intended to train Anakin all along, then the potential or either Maul or Dooku wouldn't have mattered to him.

2. Everything in TPM happened concurrently, so there was no pre-planning for Sidious. A number of sources contradict The Essential Guide (which, along with the Book of Sith, seem to have a bias narrative against Maul), such as the Darth Plagueis novel, the Episode I Journal and others. Not to mention current canon.

In fairness, you can cite some of those newer sources as having a bias narrative against Dooku. And certainly BoS doesn't have anything in particular against Maul, since Sidious expresses the same contemptuous "no successor" policy with Tyranus and Vader also.

Unless you're referring to that saberstaff quote about it being suited for the barbarians among the Sith.

Current Canon does seem to move in favor of Maul as opposed to Dooku, but by the same token, the new Canon absolutely doesn't establish anything about Sidious and Anakin up to TPM, so it's entirely possible that Sidious had known of Anakin and wanted him slightly before TPM. We do know that the new Canon has Sidious training Dooku in the ways of the Sith and giving him Sith titles even before Maul "dies", though.

3. Sidious certainly kept an eye on Dooku with thoughts of using him politically, and taking him on as an acolyte, but it's only when Maul is presumed dead that he actually takes him as a short-term apprentice.

My point is that the Oba Diah arc contradicts this, since Dooku was most definitely a Sith and had the name "Tyranus" before/concurrently with early TPM.

4. Likewise, it's only around the time Maul is dead that Sidious realises what Anakin is and could become. He didn't "always know".

That's true in the case of Legends. For Canon, we don't know.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Brotherhood isn't a comparable system to the Rule of Two. The Brotherhood had no limits on who was a Sith.

Under Bane's Rule of Two, training any additional apprentice is a direct violation. There can't be more than two Sith. That's the dilemma here.

Even if he weren't a Sith Lord, it'd be a violation of the Rule of Two.

Plagueis tried that but failed.

Which is why he killed Sifo-Dyas in that same mission.

I don't know if Sidious would be willing to name someone a Sith outside of the Banite line.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We do know that the new Canon has Sidious training Dooku in the ways of the Sith and giving him Sith titles even before Maul "dies", though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That depends on whether Sidious felt Maul had fulfilled his purpose and that he needed somebody else to engineer the next part of his Grand Plan. Certainly, Maul's potential eclipses Dooku's, but if Sidious intended to train Anakin all along, then the potential or either Maul or Dooku wouldn't have mattered to him.

Sam Witwer addressed that theory (that Sidious always planned on Anakin) saying his take is that Palpatine would make the best he could out of Maul anyway in case Anakin didn't work out or whatever.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Would he adopt the name "Tyranus" just for that? Sounds... unlikely.

Just an alias, perhaps.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like you're suggesting that Sidious was training Dooku to replace Maul as his apprentice?

I mean, the main thing I'm looking for here is a reason for Dooku to adopt the name "Tyranus" so early on.

Well, I certainly think he was Palpatine's apprentice by this point. Now whether he actually intended to replace Maul with Dooku I am unsure.

Don't you guys also find it suspicious that Sidious was showing 'great interest' in Anakin's career even as of TPM? After Maul died and even before making Dooku a proper Sith, he knew the Count was only going to be a temp and the plan even since then was to turn Anakin. So I seriously doubt his plan was to replace Maul with Dooku as an official apprentice.

Yeah, Palpatine mentions in the DP novel that Dooku is merely a placeholder, IIRC.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sam Witwer addressed that theory (that Sidious always planned on Anakin) saying his take is that Palpatine would make the best he could out of Maul anyway in case Anakin didn't work out or whatever.

Here is the thing, in canon Sidious is completely devoted to the Rule of Two. But what many don't understand is that the ROT isn't just a rule restricting the number of Sith. The corollary is that the Master is supposed to be dedicated to the Sith imperative even above his own wishes.

Many people forget this part, but it's made clear in ROTS that Sidious firmly believes it. "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us".

What that means is that Sidious isn't going to throw away the prodigy he spent 20 years molding to be his successor just because Anakin has a higher midichlorian count. That would be stupid and shortsighted and would make a mockery of their whole system. If anything, Anakin and Maul would have to duke it out for the title.

But even that isn't grasping the full implications. As I said, Maul was fully intended to be Sidious' successor, he's a Sith through and through. And Sidious knows that, and he is fully dedicated to the Sith cause, which is that the Order itself has to always get stronger, to be the best possible version of itself...

The Order, not Sidious.

What I'm getting at is this: Sidious would have been aware that, once Anakin entered the picture, the future of the Order might not involve him at all. That the question isn't whether Sidious disposes of Maul, but whether Maul disposes of Sidious. If Maul survived TPM it was a distinct possibility that he would grow in power and dispose of Sidious, then look to seduce and train Anakin himself.

Well, that's in canon anyway.

To be honest, Maul having to duke it out with Anakin during the movies would have been far cooler than Dooku.

Killing off Maul in TPM was always a mistake on Lucas's part.

Originally posted by ILS
To be honest, Maul having to duke it out with Anakin during the movies would have been far cooler than Dooku.

It always sounded pretty good to me.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Back when the TFN forum was thriving there was a poster who was fanatical about the idea that Maul should have been the PT's Vader, haunting Anakin and Obi-Wan throughout the films until they finally defeated him in ROTS. No Dooku and no Grievous.

It always sounded pretty good to me.

Dooku was cool, and his dynamic with Yoda is definitely interesting (along with his political influence and recruiting of Dark Jedi, Grievous and what not - an external resource for Sidious), but Maul-Anakin-Sidious would have been a much cooler arc, especially if Maul did go ahead and kill Qui-Gon - Obi-Wan's master, and the Jedi who rescued Anakin from a life of slavery. That creates tension and rivalry right from the offset.

I think that its the rule of two that really hamstrung the PT as far as strong villains go, had there not been that rule then Maul could have stayed alive to be the Vader of the PT and Dooku could still have been the head of the CIS, with Maul taking the place of Greivous in the CIS hierarchy; both working under Sidious of course.

Originally posted by relentless1
I think that its the rule of two that really hamstrung the PT as far as strong villains go, had there not been that rule then Maul could have stayed alive to be the Vader of the PT and Dooku could still have been the head of the CIS, with Maul taking the place of Greivous in the CIS hierarchy; both working under Sidious of course.

I mean, you've got his relationship with Yoda and Mace Windu to make use of, so there's no shortage of things that he could be doing there. I think they heavily overused Dooku and threw out Maul before using a fraction of his potential.

Originally posted by ILS
There's the whole theme of the student surpassing the master, but I feel like they squandered it during the PT. Instead of simply using Sidious' first apprentice for that - and Maul was along with Vader one of the most striking villains in the movies - they brought in Dooku, Grievous, Ventress, Savage, etc, all these different characters who are kinda-sorta-not-really Sith, and give each of them elements of wanting to surpass their masters, but we all know none of them really had a chance. They were just used up and spat back out for quick arcs and didn't really give us anything compelling. Maul was the apprentice, who was supposedly meant to surpass Sidious one day, and Anakin was the Chosen One. Watching them both getting chewed up and spat out by the Dark Side, and Sidious not having the successor he wanted because Maul died and Anakin became Vader, would have been a fitting conclusion.

Dooku was cool, and his dynamic with Yoda is definitely interesting (along with his political influence and recruiting of Dark Jedi, Grievous and what not - an external resource for Sidious), but Maul-Anakin-Sidious would have been a much cooler arc, especially if Maul did go ahead and kill Qui-Gon - Obi-Wan's master, and the Jedi who rescued Anakin from a life of slavery. That creates tension and rivalry right from the offset.

It would have worked even better with the OT, in that it would have shown that Sidious himself was the architect of his own eventual destruction, all because of his greed.

The fact of the matter was that Anakin's Chosen One-ness and high midichlorian count was completely superfluous to his victory over the Jedi, but Sidious just had to have him, had to rub it in the Jedi's face and turn their prophecy against them.

If he would have stuck with his original apprentice(this is on the premise that Maul survived Naboo) and nipped Anakin in the bud(i.e. killed him), he and Maul could have probably ruled happily ever after, or at least until the Force cooked up another way to screw them over.

But he was blinded by Anakin's potential, cooked up an extremely risky and convoluted way to turn him, and in the end it didn't matter one bit. All he had to show for his investment was a military figurehead for the Empire(which Maul would have excelled at anyway) and an extremely high medical bill for Anakin's convalescence and suit.

Ironically Maul had the right idea in TPM when he tried to run down Anakin with his bike. 😂

Of course Dooku was a placeholder. That's fact in both Canon and Legends. My point is whether Sidious now regarded both Maul and Dooku placeholders for Anakin and thus was willing to have Dooku as his apprentice because the latter's charisma was going to operate the next stage of his plan. That seems to be unlikely, though.

In any case, that just raises the question of why Sidious was training Dooku as a Sith even when Maul was around, regardless of whether Dooku was a Lord or not.