Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith"He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did I'll say that much" 1:25
It's funny how people quote Filoni all day about how Sidious enjoyed his fight with the brothers, and how they could never touch him e.t.c. but then they shy away from this quote, almost like it was never said.
And this one is from the official episode featurette as well 👆
Originally posted by Kurk
Because an all out Sidious blitzing B-team is comparable to a Sidious toying with Savage
Doesn't matter because toying or not the 3 stooges couldn't have fought as well against Sidious as per Filoni 😉
Filoni didn't say they couldn't have fought as well as Savage against Sidious, merely that they didn't, and given the context that's because of the fact Sidious was ****ing with Savage. Savage's and the B-Team's fight with Sidious is inocomparable because of this and Filoni's quote proves literally nothing.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Filoni didn't say they couldn't have fought as well as Savage against Sidious, merely that they didn't, and given the context that's because of the fact Sidious was ****ing with Savage. Savage's and the B-Team's fight with Sidious is inocomparable because of this and Filoni's quote proves literally nothing.
It proves the double standards and bias when it comes to using Filoni quotes actually.
And for Once, He was quite clear about the context. He specifically Credited Savage for doing better than the B-Team. He doesn't pin it on Sidious screwing around. And this on the official episode featurette no less.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious literally pins the bothers up against the windows with them unable to do anything about it before he allows them to fight him. Savage only did better because Sidious let him.
Well given Sidious never TK'd the B-Team that really proves nothing about Savage's superior performance in the Saber fight afterwards.
Sidious toying and Savage fighting better than the B-Team are not 2 mutually exclusive things.
Originally posted by Darth ThorNo, it proves yet again you can't grasp the context of the situation Filoni is talking about.
It proves the double standards and bias when it comes to using Filoni quotes actually.
Originally posted by Darth ThorAnd we know from his various other quotes and from the episode itself that Sidious was not trying against Savage.
And for Once, He was quite clear about the context. He specifically Credited Savage for doing better than the B-Team.
Originally posted by Darth ThorHe doesn't pin it on anything because it was a brief comment. He didn't say Savage was better than the B-Team -- he says he did better than them, because he did -- he lasted longer, but we know that was because Sidious was toying with him, (his casual body language, his laughter, various sources and Filoni's quotes regarding Sidious's attitude during the fight). Compare that with Sidious's complete bloodlust in RotS when he was pulling no punches, and it's obvious that using Sidious as a benchmark for comparing Savage and the B-Team is ridiculous.
He doesn't pin it on Sidious screwing around.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious literally pins the bothers up against the windows with them unable to do anything about it before he allows them to fight him. Savage only did better because Sidious let him.
That's definitely not what the quote says. He gives Savage more credit than the Jedi Council meaning even if Sidious was toying with the B-Team they would not have done as well as Savage.
The point of what he said is clearly that Savage>B-Team. And he doesn't say 'Sidious was playing around so he lasts longer than the B-Team' he says 'He does better than the Jedi Council I'll *give him that*. He's giving Savage an accolade. Deal with it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's definitely not what the quote says. He gives Savage more credit than the Jedi Council meaning even if Sidious was toying with the B-Team they would not have done as well as Savage.The point of what he said is clearly that Savage>B-Team. And he doesn't say 'Sidious was playing around so he lasts longer than the B-Team' he says 'He does better than the Jedi Council I'll *give him that*. He's giving Savage an accolade. Deal with it.
You basically said "screw the context, I want Savage > the B-team so that's what the quote says!"
Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's definitely not what the quote says. He gives Savage more credit than the Jedi Council meaning even if Sidious was toying with the B-Team they would not have done as well as Savage.The point of what he said is clearly that Savage>B-Team. And he doesn't say 'Sidious was playing around so he lasts longer than the B-Team' he says 'He does better than the Jedi Council I'll *give him that*. He's giving Savage an accolade. Deal with it.
Originally posted by SunRazer
You basically said "screw the context, I want Savage > the B-team so that's what the quote says!"
Lol no you are trying to add your spin to a very straightforward statement. Sidious holding back and Savage being stronger than the B-Team aren't mutually exclusive.
He's saying that within the context of both scenarios Savage's performance is better. If I take a test and automatically get a bonus of 20 points and score 100% and you take a test and score 50% I still performed better than you regardless of the bonus.
Originally posted by Rebel95
All he said was that he did better than the B Team, which he did. Not that he's better.
He was giving him an accolade. He says 'I'll give him this'. The phrasing is him giving Savage a prop up. And the prop up is a simultaneous put down of the B-Team. If he wanted to say what you are saying he said he'd say it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol no you are trying to add your spin to a very straightforward statement.
The only person adding a spin here is you. All the quote says is that Savage did better. Which he did, by actually landing a strike on Sidious and lasting longer.
But it's irrelevant in a debate because we know that Sidious held back immensely against Savage. Shadow Conspiracy makes it blatantly obvious that at his fastest, Sidious could've blitzed Maul, never mind Savage.
Sidious holding back and Savage being stronger than the B-Team aren't mutually exclusive.
No, they're not, but neither are they inclusive by any merit, including this quote.
He's saying that within the context of both scenarios Savage's performance is better. If I take a test and automatically get a bonus of 20 points and score 100% and you take a test and score 50% I still performed better than you regardless of the bonus.
Right, and the context is that Sidious held back against Savage. So in that context, Savage did better, but seeing as Sidious held back anyway, it doesn't matter.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The only person adding a spin here is you. All the quote says is that Savage did better. Which he did, by actually landing a strike on Sidious and lasting longer.
No it doesn't you are missing the critical element of Filoni's intent being to give him an accolade, not emphasize that Sidious was holding back or putting in less effort.
But it's irrelevant in a debate because we know that Sidious held back immensely against Savage. Shadow Conspiracy makes it blatantly obvious that at his fastest, Sidious could've blitzed Maul, never mind Savage.
Sidious isn't in this thread. + I've never argued Sidious couldn't blitz Savage.
No, they're not, but neither are they inclusive by any merit, including this quote.
Mmm I think they are. If I say 'I'll give you this, you fared way better against Muhammad Ali than I did.' The implication is clear that you are better than me, because you are giving me an accolade. Unless its a tongue in cheek jab at Ali holding back, which Filoni is clearly not making in that context.
Right, and the context is that Sidious held back against Savage. So in that context, Savage did better, but seeing as Sidious held back anyway, it doesn't matter.
Yes it does. Because if Filoni didn't want to give Savage an accolade putting him above the B-Team, why make the statement in the first place? You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are failing to grasp the intent behind Filoni saying that in the first place.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it doesn't you are missing the critical element of Filoni's intent being to give him an accolade, not emphasize that Sidious was holding back or putting in less effort.
I didn't say that his intent was to emphasize Sidious was holding back. I just said that when you apply that context, the accolade becomes less impressive.
Sidious isn't in this thread. + I've never argued Sidious couldn't blitz Savage.
I said "in a thread", not this thread.
Mmm I think they are. If I say 'I'll give you this, you fared way better against Muhammad Ali than I did.' The implication is clear that you are better than me, because you are giving me an accolade.
Or maybe it's just a statement that I lasted longer in a fight? Maybe Muhammad Ali had had three knives in his back when I fought him.
Quotes don't always make direct reference to context. It's our job to put it in.
Unless its a tongue in cheek jab at Ali holding back, which Filoni is clearly not making in that context.
Well, considering in the discussion Filoni says "being killed by Sidious is a good feat", he could well be making a jab, lol.
Anyways, it's not hard to understand. Performing better against Sidious than the B-team and being stronger than the B-team are not the same things. Filoni's quote only validates the former notion.
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]I didn't say that his intent was to emphasize Sidious was holding back. I just said that when you apply that context, the accolade becomes less impressive.
No it doesn't because Filoni was applying the accolade within the context of the fight. He thinks in spite of Sidious holding back Savage is still the superior combatant. Which is pretty much confirmed given that Savage is superior to Ventress and has trounced Adi Gallia. Savage is beyond the B-Team, obviously not as a group, but individually Savage would defeat any of them quite handily imo.
I said "in a thread", not this thread.
Yeah I am just saying it seems kind of irrelevant.
Or maybe it's just a statement that I lasted longer in a fight? Maybe Muhammad Ali had had three knives in his back when I fought him.
Which again is a pointless statement. Filoni made it a point to directly compare the performances. That's how language works, you make a statement to convey a point. You are putting way too much analysis into a simple statement. So at this point I'd refer you to Occam's razor and call it a day.
Quotes don't always make direct reference to context. It's our job to put it in.
No it isn't. Filoni knows the context of his own show. It is by no means your job to put his words into any context.
Well, considering in the discussion Filoni says "being killed by Sidious is a good feat", he could well be making a jab, lol.
He's obviously not making a jab. 😆
You are complicating a matter that doesn't need complicating. And no he's not saying its a good feat he's saying its an honorable way to go out because he's the best combatant in the galaxy sans perhaps Yoda at that time.
Anyways, it's not hard to understand. Performing better against Sidious than the B-team and being stronger than the B-team are not the same things. Filoni's quote only validates the former notion.
Filoni's statement clearly outlines that he believes Savage is superior to the B-Team (individually). And at this point I'm pretty sure you are just arguing for the sake of arguing because Savage's feats absolutely shit on even Kit Fisto who is the strongest member of the B-Team. Filoni simply cements what he's already shown by having Savage trounce Adi Gallia and defeat Ventress, most Jedi Masters are no match for Savage Oppress Kit Fisto and co. are not exceptions to that.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it doesn't because Filoni was applying the accolade within the context of the fight. He thinks in spite of Sidious holding back Savage is still the superior combatant.