Cap has only so much surface area to hit, so not all 50 are gonna be able to hit him at once. It's like Neo against all those Agent Smiths. The best they could do is dogpile-on-the-wabbit. That could well do the trick. But sequential attacks, at 6-8 at a time (again, limited surface area): a faster, stronger, tactical, fatigueless Cap wins, handidly, imo.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I notice that you still haven't provided any examples from the comics to back up your claim.
What a character's average is a matter of opinion. It is based off some showings and or some other rationale (like intentions of the writers).
That's why every member posts different power scales for characters (in those if Superman is 100 threads). Everyone has a different opinion of the level of a character. The only thing we can prove is a range (lowest and highest).
Originally posted by h1a8
What a character's average is a matter of opinion. It is based off some showings and or some other rationale (like intentions of the writers).That's why every member posts different power scales for characters (in those if Superman is 100 threads). Everyone has a different opinion of the level of a character. The only thing we can prove is a range (lowest and highest).
Then post the comic scenes that you've based Cap's "average" on.
Originally posted by Silent MasterAll the scenes where he fights human level beings. He punches them and does not ko them. Or he hits them and they don't fly back very far. Some are even able to block and dodge his attacks. All the showings needed him to have a shield to block bullets.
Then post the comic scenes that you've based Cap's "average" on.
Mike Tyson has GREAT REFLEXES. He has dodged lightning fast jabs with no problem. He has great speed. He has produced lightning fast punches instantly.
The fact that the acceleration of gravity in the real world is very slow. That means Cap will not as fast as some think.And if some grab him then there will be free hits and kicks.
Originally posted by h1a8
All the scenes where he fights human level beings. He punches them and does not ko them. Or he hits them and they don't fly back very far. Some are even able to block and dodge his attacks. All the showings needed him to have a shield to block bullets.
All the showings where bullets go through him as easy as a normal human.Mike Tyson has GREAT REFLEXES. He has dodged lightning fast jabs with no problem. He has great speed. He has produced lightning fast punches instantly.
The fact that the acceleration of gravity in the real world is very slow. That means Cap will not as fast as some think.And if some grab him then there will be free hits and kicks.
But Mike has also been tagged many times by slow punches. And has slow punches.
How do you prove that Cap punched those guys with the same amount of strength as he does in his high showings?
Originally posted by h1a8
All the scenes where he fights human level beings. He punches them and does not ko them. Or he hits them and they don't fly back very far. Some are even able to block and dodge his attacks. All the showings needed him to have a shield to block bullets.
All the showings where bullets go through him as easy as a normal human.Mike Tyson has GREAT REFLEXES. He has dodged lightning fast jabs with no problem. He has great speed. He has produced lightning fast punches instantly.
The fact that the acceleration of gravity in the real world is very slow. That means Cap will not as fast as some think.And if some grab him then there will be free hits and kicks.
So you're not going to actually post any scenes?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Mike has also been tagged many times by slow punches. And has slow punches.How do you prove that Cap punched those guys with the same amount of strength as he does in his high showings?
H1 apparently thinks that Cap always punches people with 100% of his strength, thus him fighting random thugs can be used to determine his average strength level.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Mike has also been tagged many times by slow punches. And has slow punches.How do you prove that Cap punched those guys with the same amount of strength as he does in his high showings?
No fictional character has the same strength level from scene to scene. I was watching Supergirl show on Netflix. She casually lifted a 500 million ton key to the fortress of solitude. But in other scenes she struggled lifting shit that was under 1000tons.
Comics are even more inconsistent. Writer's don't use real science to determine how much force it takes to do a feat. They just think of a feat and if it's cool, they add it (regardless if it contradicts other showings). That's why we get contradictions EVERYWHERE.
If we take Cap at his strongest and fastest then this is a spite thread as Cap stomps. I'm not arguing that Cap. I'm arguing the only one that makes this thread worth debating (a more average Cap).
If the highest level of Cap shown must be used then that is the end of the thread. Nothing more to discuss.
Giving Cap the strength to lift 1000 tons over his head is still beyond human, but within the suspension of disbelief of how strong a human could possibly be. It is also consistent with many of his striking showings. And it makes the thread debatable.
Originally posted by h1a8
No fictional character has the same strength level from scene to scene. I was watching Supergirl show on Netflix. She casually lifted a 500 million ton key to the fortress of solitude. But in other scenes she struggled lifting shit that was under 1000tons.Comics are even more inconsistent. Writer's don't use real science to determine how much force it takes to do a feat. They just think of a feat and if it's cool, they add it (regardless if it contradicts other showings). That's why we get contradictions EVERYWHERE.
If we take Cap at his strongest and fastest then this is a spite thread as Cap stomps. I'm not arguing that Cap. I'm arguing the only one that makes this thread worth debating (a more average Cap).
If the highest level of Cap shown must be used then that is the end of the thread. Nothing more to discuss.
Giving Cap the strength to lift 1000 tons over his head is still beyond human, but within the suspension of disbelief of how strong a human could possibly be. It is also consistent with many of his striking showings. And it makes the thread debatable.
Wait, then why you go on and on about (X amount) Earth weights using real world math?
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, then why you go on and on about (X amount) Earth weights using real world math?
You do not understand.
I'm stating TWO versions of the fight based off TWO different sets of views.
Many posters post a character's highest showings as a representative of the character in the thread. If we go by that view then Cap stomps.
But if we use a more average version of the character then it becomes a different fight.
So it doesn't matter which view we use, as long as it makes for a good debate.
In your honest opinion, would using a more average Cap here make the thread debatable?
As far as Superman I have the mental block argument to show his fluctuations 😛
But that was a long time ago. I haven't argued that in forever.
Originally posted by h1a8
No fictional character has the same strength level from scene to scene. I was watching Supergirl show on Netflix. She casually lifted a 500 million ton key to the fortress of solitude. But in other scenes she struggled lifting shit that was under 1000tons.Comics are even more inconsistent. Writer's don't use real science to determine how much force it takes to do a feat. They just think of a feat and if it's cool, they add it (regardless if it contradicts other showings). That's why we get contradictions EVERYWHERE.
If we take Cap at his strongest and fastest then this is a spite thread as Cap stomps. I'm not arguing that Cap. I'm arguing the only one that makes this thread worth debating (a more average Cap).
If the highest level of Cap shown must be used then that is the end of the thread. Nothing more to discuss.
Giving Cap the strength to lift 1000 tons over his head is still beyond human, but within the suspension of disbelief of how strong a human could possibly be. It is also consistent with many of his striking showings. And it makes the thread debatable.
Aren't you the one who always says that writers ignore speed, and tagging someone who is fast isn't proof of that person's speed?
And that we go by feats here?
So why the double standard now?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Aren't you the one who always says that writers ignore speed, and tagging someone who is fast isn't proof of that person's speed?And that we go by feats here?
So why the double standard now?
Originally posted by h1a8
There is no double standard. Nothing I said contradicts that. If you believe it does, then clearly state what I said contradicts these things.
If Character A tags Character B (who is a speedster), that does not mean that Character A is fast - writers for the sake of plot ignore Character B's speed.
That is your usual stance.
Fair enough.
If writers for the sake of plot ignore speed, why don't they ignore strength?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If Character A tags Character B (who is a speedster), that does not mean that Character A is fast - writers for the sake of plot ignore Character B's speed.That is your usual stance.
Fair enough.
If writers for the sake of plot ignore speed, why don't they ignore strength?
Speed is OFTEN ignored completely because
1.it's a habit of having characters with human level reflexes and speed to have the audience relate more to the action.
2. It's unfair and thus very hard to create adversity for.
Spider-Man will dodge bullets and beams 100% of the time but not slower moving punches.
Super strength is hardly ever ignored. It just fluctuates from scene to scene to satisfy the plot. Cap will ALWAYS be able to lift something over 800lbs.
If it was ignored then I would have said Caps average is 500lb. I said
800-1000lbs because of the distance flew of the people he hits.
One more thing. Writer's intentions will have a set strength level for a character (like 800lbs) but they don't do research on the feats they have the character performs. Thus the character will sometimes perform outside this set amount by accident.
Originally posted by h1a8
Speed is OFTEN ignored completely because
1.it's a habit of having characters with human level reflexes and speed to have the audience relate more to the action.
2. It's unfair and thus very hard to create adversity for.
Spider-Man will dodge bullets and beams 100% of the time but not slower moving punches.Super strength is hardly ever ignored. It just fluctuates from scene to scene to satisfy the plot. Cap will ALWAYS be able to lift something over 800lbs.
If it was ignored then I would have said Caps average is 500lb. I said
800-1000lbs because of the distance flew of the people he hits.One more thing. Writer's intentions will have a set strength level for a character (like 800lbs) but they don't do research on the feats they have the character performs. Thus the character will sometimes perform outside this set amount by accident.
Why does the same not apply to strength? Your reasoning also holds true for strength as for speed. I can't relate to Cap if every blow he throws sends thugs flying halfway across the battlefield, or if he casually picks thugs up one handed etc. Nor is it easy to create adversity when he can just flex a bicep and send his shield decapitating thugs.
As you said, it fluctuates. So it is being ignored in scenes where it is not present.