It should be noted that he mentally dominated/suppressed Vaylin whilst he was splitting his mental strength between his Voice and Valkorion. Meaning he was mentally defending against the entity Sel-Makor whilst focusing power on his galaxy-spanning ritual and was suppressing Vaylin's Vader+ Force power.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
[B]TELEPATHYI will start this of by saying: Vader won't last very long. He is outclassed by Valkorion so badly, that his presence is effectively insignificance. Unless Palpatine sticks his neck out to protect his apprentice at all cost, he isn't won't survive past the initial onslaught. One of the main reasons for that is Valkorion's incredible telepathic prowess.[/b]
That Valkoriate possesses an enormous talent for telepathy is uncontested, but if there is evidence to suggest he is capable of mindhaxxing someone of Vader's caliber without nexus or preparation, you've yet to provide it.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Even as a child, before gaining a absolute substantial amount of power, knowledge, and skill in the Force, he utterly trashed Dramath's mind:
No Caption ProvidedTenebrae broke Lord Dramath's mind, but not before revealing that he was actually his son.
--Excerpt from Old Republic Encyclopedia
Indeed remarkable, but what accolades or feats does Dramath have to his name that indicate this effort would be remotely sufficient to conquer Vader?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Later on, after gaining a substantial amount of power and control, while using only a small fraction of his power, he was able to utterly dominate the minds of Revan and Malak:By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.
--Excerpt from Old Republic Encyclopedia
Even accounting for the nexus, it only required if we do want to nitpick the showing by screaming "NEXUS!", note the quote specifically says it required only a fractionof Vitiate power so it more than evens itself out.
Not quite, sir.
The text indicates that it took merely a "fraction" of Vitiate's powers to merely complete their fall to the dark side, which the text notes the pair was already on the precipice of by the time they reached the throne room.
Revan provides further elaboration:
“The last time you were here?” Scourge said, pouncing on the phrase. “Have some of your memories returned?”
“Seeing my old mask triggered something. I remember everything now,” Revan admitted. “Malak and I learned the Sith still survived. We came here to Dromund Kaas to investigate. Posing as mercenaries, we spent months learning everything we could about the Emperor and his people. Even back then he was already planning his invasion of the Republic. When Malak and I learned of his preparations, we tried to stop him. We found a member of the Imperial Guard who was willing to sneak us inside the citadel.”
“Impossible,” Scourge declared. “The Guard are bound to the Emperor’s will at the end of their training by a powerful ritual. They would never betray him!”
“True, but we didn’t know that at the time,” Revan explained. “We were being led into a trap; the Emperor wanted us to come to him. When we got to his throne room, he was ready and waiting.” His voice dropped low. “We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed.
The entire scenario was an elaborate trap orchestrated by Vitiate on a dark side nexus and his targets were completely unprepared. Besides which, note that Scourge himself declares that even a non-Force sensitive Imperial Guardsman is bound to Vitiate's will by means of "a powerful ritual."
In this context, Valkoriate has no nexus to draw from nor traps to spring nor rituals to conduct and his opponents are both full-fledged dark siders.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Other Valkorion telepathic showing include, but not limited to:- Mentally suppressing Vaylin's power.
You'll have to refresh me on the role played by Valkorion's powers here. As best I recall from the cutscenes, Vaylin's suppression was the result of enormous enterprise consisting of a potent dark side nexus, numerous scientific experiments, and psychological conditioning.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Mentally dominating an entire strike team of the most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy.
After rendering them unconscious and presumably conducting the same sort of ritual needed to ensnare Revan, Malak, and the common Imperial Guardsman. Is there evidence that the effect was instantaneous and effortless?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Mind controlled countless minds during the Ziost campaign
The effort being part of a grand ritual, Ziost being a dark side nexus, and those minds not being comparable to an extremely powerful Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Dropped telepathic discomfort to the point he was dropped to his knees via a small glimpse in his mind
Scourge, I take it? Also on a dark side nexus.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
- Being significantly more powerful than the army controlling and fleet wiping telepathic powers of the Dread Master collective.
Again, you'll have to refresh my memory here. As best I recall, the Dread Masters were only capable of such feats when pooling their abilities in unison and in deep meditation and by harnessing the power of Sith paraphernalia, such as the Phobis Devices. Where is it established that Valkoriate is their superior in this exact respect and to such an enormous degree?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
This is literally [b]hundreds of years before Vitiate/Valkorion factually gained a substantial amount of power, which, would logically make his telepathy even more potent and lethal.[/b]
I think your timeline might be off on some of these feats. The destruction of Ziost only occurred a few years before KOTFE proper and Vaylin isn't centuries old, is she?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Now, one could claim Vader's telepathy would/should be efficient enough to fend off Valkorion's - my response: where is the proof to back up such an assumption? Four times, we have seen Vader's mind attacked, and each and every time, Vader's defenses can be said to have left much to be desired. To put the aforemention events in perspective1) The time he was clearly visibly affected, once by Luke Skywalker in the old Marvel Comics:
http://static6.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/93477/3210920-3210918-canoscan%2B8800f.jpg
Luke, at this point, was an absolute n00b as it took place probably months after the events of AnH, yet, Vader visibly shaken by the telepathic blast. You can say his mind was unshielded, but per sources such as Shield of Lies, Force users are protected by intrinsic telepathic barriers that doesn't require any conscious thought. So anyway you want to spin it, Vader's not looking so good.
Nice, I've never seen this before. It's a decent showing for Vader and particularly Luke, really.
Consider: the text identifies Luke's "vast power" {which we know to be among the absolute best ever and certainly well in excess of Vitiate's own} and says that "all" of Luke's raging feelings blast into Vader's "unprotected mind." {We also know how terrifying Luke can be when employing his rage through the Force.}
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
2) In the The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook: Clone B-2332-54, Palpatine was able to mentally molest Vader from distance measured in light years. Sidous, per it's absence in the text, was met with no resistance despite Vader's chance to rebuke his intrusion
Which is easily explained by the Emperor's superiority over Valkoriate. Not to mention the fact that Vader was clearly not expecting the Emperor's psychic intrusion, given that he was across the galaxy and they weren't in contact.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
3) In the comic Darth Vader and the Lost Command, we once again see Vader fall prey to telepathy, this time in the fashion of multiple illusions created by Saro.
True: A half-dead Vader early in his career in the heart of Saro's temple.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
4) And finally, in the novel Last of the Jedi, Vader was unable to initially detect illusions created by Jax Pavan. He eventually did, but it took him some time to figure it out just what they were. Albeit Jax's illusions are formidable, but they pale in comparison to the Dread Masters, someone who's power is "insignificant" compared to Vitiate own, let alone Valkorion.
It's been years since I read The Last Jedi, so you'll have to refresh me again: Jax's illusions were not only empowered by knowledge from Darth Ramage's Holocron but also a nugget of pyronium. And I remember Vader handling them pretty easily.
1/2
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
So, to summarize this post:- Valkorion is the of the most monstrous and dominating telepaths in the entire Star Wars universe, that has mentally dominated absolute power house characters.
- Time and again, Vader has showed his in suggestible to telepathic attacks, and he has absolutely zero showing [to my knowledge] that suggest he could fend off Valkorion's dominating mental fortitude.
Therefore, from the onset of this match, Vader is immediately downed by a telepathic attack, leaving Valkorion and Palpatne to duke it out. That match-up being another can of worms I will open up and get to in my next post.
End post # 1.
As I explained, I don't dispute Valkoriate's status as one of the greatest telepaths in the mythos. And I don't even dispute the notion that he could overcome Vader telepathically. What I wholeheartedly contest is the notion that he would do so instantly and effortlessly, without aid of nexus or preparation, and while having to deal simultaneously with the Emperor. I believe that your case is not adequately made.
And lastly...
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Okay, now for the opener. You're great Tempest, greater than me, and, quite possibly, the best this forum, or any other forum that debates Star Wars has ever seen. To me however, you're nothing but an obstacle that stands in my way of climbing the metaphorical ladder to the top.Now lets get this party started, shall we?
You flatter me, my child. But I respect your sass and skill in equal measure; and I know you're a worthy opponent.
Come at me, bro.
Spoiler:
I apologize for the double post. I pared down my response greatly for the past 15 minutes trying to keep it to one post, but to no avail. Great effort, DC. Looking forward to your response!
2/2
Place all speculative comments pertaining to this thread in this thread. Have a moderator edit out the other comments here so the one on one debate stands alone.
*roots for Tempest partly out of logic, but also partly because he's disappointed he never got to see Vitiate's original body*
Fvck u, SWTOR. You can suck my dick.
