Originally posted by SunRazer???
The cloud could've constituted a different Force attack.
Not even sure what your getting at here but no, it was Force drain obviously. And there is no bombardment reaching the surface, so that rules out it occurring simultaneously. It's pointless to argue it occurred afterwards so in regards to "off-panel" it could only have been before, and yet here:
We not only see buildings collapsing without a laser bolt in sight, but the cloud simultaneously engulfing the planet, so no, no bombardment.
What Vitiate did on Ziost would be more comparable to a ritual like Nathema than something like Nihilus' Drain in KotOR II. I have no reason to suspect that Vitiate would've learned the technique.I don't have enough details on Nathema to comment but by the looks of it the ritual left massive craters in the planet:
As for why Drain doesn't damage buildings - by definition, it doesn't. That's why the TCSWE quote mentions Nihilus feeding on worlds independently of him "blasting them into ruin", because they're not the same power.It doesn't? It says he drew "more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin", it's a dependent, not separate clause.
I'll provide you with every in-game definition and we'll see what there is that affects buildings:Mind explaining to me at which point in your life you were dropped on your head? 🙂This pretty much seals it. Traya says that it can be used to consume Force-sensitives, and at the highest pinnacle, consume [b]anything that lives
. Buildings obviously not included, not to mention that Nihilus hasn't even reached the pinnacle yet.Unless buildings have Force connections, then no, they wouldn't be affected.
Mind explaining to me how buildings have connections to life or the Force that can be severed, and then how buildings have deaths that can be fed upon? [/b]
I wasn't suggesting Nihilus drained the buildings lmfao. And that's not what Vitiate did either. Logically speaking, it was a by-product of process, excess energy, much like real world energy transfers give off light, heat etc. In this respect the planetary storm Nihilus conjured seemed to have triggered some kind of shockwave/seismic event, which is not unprecedented.
1. I'll concede to this for the sake of moving the argument along, because my argument works fine even if I agree to you on these issues. And because I'm finding myself less inclined to believe the orbital bombardment theory myself - just that there are pre-requisites for Nihilus' Drain to be used on such a scale.
I'm curious though - we've been debating the possibility of orbital bombardment on Katarr and so far nobody has mentioned that Visas claims it was not an attack done by machinery or weapons. Doesn't that seem a lot more conclusive to you people? It didn't even get a mention in this entire thread.
2. My point is that Vitiate's technique isn't the same as Nihilus', so I don't know why we're comparing it. Moreover, all of this stuff came from before Vitiate's conception. So without using Vitiate as a basis, what arguments can you present?
3. You can't blame someone for misinterpreting you given that Drain has only one known effect in the mythos and this "by-product effect" of yours has no known documentation or basis. I don't have any reason to suspect that you were in actuality referring to some ooga-booga that you made up on the spot.
Do you mind establishing a basis for this?
And you'll forgive me if I have a lot of questions about this by-product effect that you're talking about. Why did Traya's Drain fail to cause any noticeable structural damage? How come the buildings were toppling even before the people died if Drain takes energy out of the people? How exactly do connections in the Force (which have no physical presence) being drained lead to physical damage? If the black cloud is Drain, then how are the buildings toppling already when the Drain hasn't even reached the people? Why is Drain never mentioned as damaging its surroundings due to "excess energy" in KotOR II?
I find it far more likely that the destruction seen in Unseen, Unheard is related to Nihilus "blasting worlds into ruin" as TCSWE describes. Per TCSWE, the blasting is active on Nihilus' part, not reactive due to his Drain. So this "by-product" argument is only getting weaker.
4. You've only debated the possibility of Drain causing physical damage - I assume you don't have anything to say about Nihilus not being able to just rock up to a planet and kill all life in a moment?
1. OK.
And I don't recall, though there is a quote where Meetra says only orbital bombardment could have killed so many people, and Visas says naw. Regardless, that's probably because the comic making it blatantly obvious what occurred means we needn't root around for additional sources. 🙂
2. My bad misread. In response to your point though you given any basis for assuming they are different, the ritualistic aspect is a null point as its evidently isn't necessary. Which simply leaves us with planetary drain. Seems the same yeah.
Even more so Nihilus is said to have learned the same technique as the ancient Sith, of whom Vitiate was among.
3. My "ooga-booga" is documented in this comic called Unseen, Unheard. Try reading it. 👆
And you can't compare it to Traya's application of drain, the magnitude is completely different, while as far as the TCSWE is concerned, even if its only a by-product of his drain, he's still actively brought it about by draining them...
4. No. 🙂
1. The original source was the game, where Visas directly states that "it was not something done with machines or weapons".
2. The Ancient Sith on Malachor, yeah, which Vitiate was never indicated as travelling to. Moreover, Vitiate hasn't actually experienced its effects first-hand, so he can't be using that technique.
3. Nowhere does Unseen, Unheard make any mention of why the buildings were destroyed - whether it was another Force attack, "excess energy" being released as a by-product of the Drain, etc.
So I ask again, what is your basis for Force Drain releasing excess energy as a by-product?
Traya's Drain is a significantly lower magnitude, but it's still three of the most powerful Masters ever. Besides, it's not the buildings in that one scan would've crumbled from the by-product of all the Jedi and Miraluka on the planet - only the ones in the vicinity, which is unlikely to be so greater than the three Masters on Dantooine that Traya's Drain would cause no environmental damage.
As for TCSWE, it suggests that Nihilus blasted worlds into ruin first, then fed on them, which doesn't fit your "by-product" theory. And being a by-product doesn't make it an active effect that's independent of the feeding, which is what TCSWE states.
1. OK
2. According to what? And how do you know what Vitiate has or hasn't experienced?
3. Because its obvious yeah. Nihilus drained the planet, and the buildings were destroyed in the process. There was no bombardment, so we can rule that out, and though we could assume he achieved this result through a separate Force act, that introduces several logical roadblocks, mainly revolving around why.
That it was a by-product of the drain is simply the most straightforward interpretation.
Nihilus drained the entire planet, not just the Jedi and Miraluka, so no it don't compare et al.
And sure you could infer that, but that suggests that he needed to destroy the target before he could consume it, which conflicts with how drain is described to work in-game. And no it works fine, the quote says he blasted worlds into ruin, which he did, it doesn't say how.
2. Because apart from an appeal to ignorance, there's no basis for Vitiate learning the technique. The technique is derived from Malachor, which as Traya says, the [true] Sith have forgotten about.
3. The only other things in the vicinity of that scan would've been vermin (which we can safely dismiss as being negligible) and perhaps some vegetation. Certainly nowhere near enough to make up the difference between ruining numerous large buildings and having no environmental consequence whatsoever.
4. The quote explicitly mentions him feeding off worlds that he blasted into ruin, indicating that the latter comes first. So the by-product theory makes little sense.
Why would Nihilus need to use a separate attack to kill the population when the drain is lethal in of itself? That doesn't make any sense.
Regardless, the feeding is not separate from him blasting them into ruins. Not only are you quibbling semantics, you're not even doing it correctly in the first place. For instance:
"The soldiers moved on, looting towns that they mercilessly sacked."
The two actions are not separate and take place simultaneously, are distinct yet come from the same action.
Vitiates drain proves that drain on that scale can drstroy buildings and no matter how much you moan that they're different, it still establishes that Nihilus drain could have caused the destruction. Which anyone with two working eyes could also tell you.
I'll respond to your other post tomorrow.
Vitiate's Drain isn't Nihilus' Drain. So I'll "moan" again - establish a precedent for NIHILUS' Drain destroying buildings. Because all of this stuff was written before Vitiate came into existence. Clearly Vitiate wasn't related to the author's intent. So without Vitiate as an example, is it even possible for you to formulate a case for the Drain destroying the buildings? You think the black thing is the Drain, yet the buildings are crumbling before the black thing even hits them.
Drain doesn't "blast worlds into ruin", anyway. 😬 It's clear that it's a separate effect.
Originally posted by SunRazerApart from his ability to use planetary drain. Like I said not really seeing a reason to believe its a different technique. I also asked what evidence there was this knowledge was restricted to Malachor.
2. Because apart from an appeal to ignorance, there's no basis for Vitiate learning the technique. The technique is derived from Malachor, which as Traya says, the [true] Sith have forgotten about.
3. The only other things in the vicinity of that scan would've been vermin (which we can safely dismiss as being negligible) and perhaps some vegetation. Certainly nowhere near enough to make up the difference between ruining numerous large buildings and having no environmental consequence whatsoever.
Why are you reducing this to a single scan? Nihilus drained the entire planet lmao.
4. The quote explicitly mentions him feeding off worlds that he blast[b]ed into ruin, indicating that the latter comes first. So the by-product theory makes little sense. [/B]The entire sentence is written in past tense, so naw.
And you'll find that Nihilus needing to blast worlds into ruin to consume his targets is what doesn't add up.
1. You mean his ability to do that Void thing he did on Nathema, which isn't the same. So again, we're left with baseless speculation. Regardless, even if Vitiate did know that Drain, the one he showed on Ziost has more similarities with what he did on Nathema, which isn't the same as Nihilus' Drain.
And we only have documentation of the technique being learned from Malachor. If we take Kreia's word at face value that it was lost since the Ancient Sith, so Sadow couldn't have known it since his knowledge was passed down to Nadd and Kun. So Vitiate's chances of learning it are again diminished.
2. The buildings destroyed in that scan aren't destroyed from the excess energy of the entire planet, lol, just the vicinity. What about the buildings on the rest of the planet?
3. Not really. It's not hard to reconcile Telos, Onderon, Katarr and those worlds that get blasted into ruin.
And the TCSWE sentence still implies that he blasted the worlds into ruin first. There's no point in him doing it after, of course, and it's not the same because Drain doesn't blast worlds into ruin. So the logical conclusion would be that he blasted the worlds into ruin and then fed off their deaths.
1. How is it not the same? You haven't specified any differences.
And I'm still waiting for this source saying only Malachor folk knew about it, Kreia as I recall referred to the ancient Sith in general. And who knows what Sadow, Nadd and Kun were capable of.
2. The destruction was caused by the magnitude of energy unleashed by planetary-tier drain. This is not hard to grasp.
3. Kreia says that the Force drain works by draining the Force connections of the targets, not burying them in rubble them gobbling up the remains.
And nah it doesn't, in fact.
1. Well, one's a ritual of Sith Sorcery, and the other isn't. Nihilus doesn't become immortal, and Nyriss observes that "Nathema is no longer a world", even though Visas claims that "my homeworld is still intact".
2. Yes, but the buildings in each area could only be destroyed by the "excess energy" released in the vicinity. A building at point X isn't going to be destroyed by energy released on the other side of the world.
Regardless, in no description of the technique in KotOR II is there a reference to to the user unleashing energy. Kreia literally describes it as the user drawing upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them, and then feeding on their death.
3. It must've been sloppy draining of Force connections to release so much energy to destroy those buildings. I mean, seriously, how does funneling energy into yourself destroy buildings?
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Well, one's a ritual of Sith Sorcery, and the other isn't. Nihilus doesn't become immortal, and Nyriss observes that "Nathema is no longer a world", even though Visas claims that "my homeworld is still intact".
Darth Nihilus's apocalyptic Force Drain is an example of Sith Sorcery (hint: the speaking aspect involved in it; he casts a spell or something).
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Yes, but the buildings in each area could only be destroyed by the "excess energy" released in the vicinity. A building at point X isn't going to be destroyed by energy released on the other side of the world.Regardless, in no description of the technique in KotOR II is there a reference to to the user unleashing energy. Kreia literally describes it as the user drawing upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them, and then feeding on their death.
3. It must've been sloppy draining of Force connections to release so much energy to destroy those buildings. I mean, seriously, how does funneling energy into yourself destroy buildings?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. Kreia says that the Force drain works by draining the Force connections of the targets, not burying them in rubble them gobbling up the remains.
👆
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."
The technique causes the death.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Sorcery is just an umbrella term to describe stuff that is poorly understood.Darth Nihilus's apocalyptic Force Drain is an example of Sith Sorcery (hint: the speaking aspect involved in it; he casts a spell or something).
If Darth Nihilus draws power from the (target) world and channels it into his attack (like Abeloth), then destruction of that magnitude is possible from the excessive energy. Because the power of the planet is involved.
1. The KotORCG confirms that the time of Sorcerers is gone by KotOR. The only ones remaining are the ones on Tund.
2. Channels what into an attack? The Drain is the attack.