Originally posted by Freedon NaddHe lifted many massive stone pillars most likely weighing several tons each with ease. This shits all over any Maul feat that I know of.
Didn't Dooku lift a massive pot with the Force instantly? I think this is quite a feat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bYqIksEOek
They were clearly heavy judging by the noise they made when they landed after he released them.
Originally posted by MythLordDo people acknowledge your posts when you say things like this, or do they actually go unchallenged? Just skimming I found three things wrong with this:
Dooku throwing around cruisers, doing considerably more damage to Obi with the Force, and adding more power to Sidious than Maul could to Talzin while injured should place him noticeably ahead of Maul, yeah.
1. The cruiser feat.
Dooku was on a powerful dark side nexus. Relevant quotes:
Anakin felt the dread in the room. He knew of Korriban only through legends. Thousands of years before, it had been the seat of Sith power. The tombs of the ancient Sith Lords were there, and it was still a source of the dark side of the Force. It was a place no Jedi wanted to go.
Siri sat astride a chair, planting her hands on her knees. "Don't be so poetic. It's just a planet.""More than a planet," Obi-Wan said, gazing at the chart. "A source of evil that still calls evil to come meet it."
"I don't believe that," Siri said. "It's just a place where some old Sith bones lie."
"The Valley of the Dark Lords," Obi-Wan said. They had heard of the valley from their earliest days as students at the Temple, had used tales of the valley to scare each other as younglings. "The dark side of the Force still lives in that valley. Korriban has never recovered from the Sith occupation. That was thousands of years ago, and yet the planet has never formed a government or attracted settlers. It's not part of the galactic alliance. It has never joined the Senate."
Korriban loomed in their vision, a large planet with blood-red clouds obscuring its surface."I've heard it called the cradle of darkness," Obi-Wan said. He realized that he had lowered his voice.
He felt it now, the dark side of the Force emanating from the planet's surface. Looking at the faces of the Jedi, he knew they felt it as well. It had a sick sweetness to it, something that seemed to pour through his veins, attracting and repelling him at once. It was the most complicated surge of the dark side he had ever felt.
He struggled to meet it, struggled to clear his mind.
Warily, Obi-Wan moved forward and entered the coordinates into the nav computer. His fingers hesitated even as they entered the data. It was as though making the commitment to land was sealing their fate.
He stood and joined the other Jedi at the cockpit windscreen. They couldn't turn away. The ship flew into the atmosphere, straight through the blood-red clouds, and dread entered their hearts as the surface of the planet grew closer.
Anakin felt a touch on his shoulder and turned. No one was behind him. Perhaps it had been a leaf brushing his shoulder - but he knew, of course, that there were no trees on Korriban.Another touch - Anakin whipped around. He looked at Ferus, wondering if he was trying to play a trick on him, but Ferus was several meters back, talking to Soara.
He began to pick up a whisper. Then another. He couldn't make out the words, only the intent. Someone was baiting him, cajoling him, laughing at him... or was it his imagination? Was it just the wind whispering through the stones?
They crossed the street and he thought he saw a flash of something - blood coursing down a stone wall. When he blinked, it was gone.
"Master... "
"It is the dark side of the Force, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "I'm picking it up, too. Ignore it."
But Anakin couldn't ignore it. There was something insistent about the voices. Something that urged him to answer. Although the feeling made him anxious, he also wanted to face it. He wanted to get to the root of this dark power... to match himself against it... to prove, once and for all, that he was as strong as it was.
Regarding the Valley of Dark Lords:
When at last they saw the Valley of Dark Lords ahead in the distance, their steps slowed and then stopped. The wave that came at them made them pause. It fractured the Force they felt around them, tore at it. They had expected to feel more of the dark side, but they hadn't realized how concentrated it would be.They knew the Sith tombs that inhabited the valley were designed to amplify dark energy. It was a physical presence that the Jedi could feel, pressing against their chests. It made them instinctively reach for their lightsaber hilts.
The dark side of the Force was like a presence, interfering with concentration and sapping energy. The Jedi reached out to one another, calling on the Force to battle the dark side, the undead who kept on coming.
The vehicles were described as "corroded", so it's likely that time and/or the Dark Side allowed them to waste away, meaning less mass and weight, and all of the ships were regarded as "ancient", meaning the corrosive wreck of a ship Dooku pushed was likely falling to bits..
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Many of the cruisers are described as a "wreck":
Whoever the Sith was, he knew exactly where Anakin was, for, to Obi-Wan's horror, his apprentice was suddenly lifted like a doll and flung into the air. Anakin's body slammed into the wreck of a cruiser.
"They saw Auben cowering behind the wreck of an ancient vehicle.
"This was probably from before the sublight engine was perfected," Anakin said, half to himself. Under normal circumstances, he would love to investigate the ancient technology of the ship.
"Service bay after service bay ran down each side of the hangar, waiting to repair the ships that no longer arrived. Hulking wrecks of ships still littered the floor, bits of metal that had once been droids, decayed tanks. Huge statues of terrifying creatures from many worlds marched on either side down the hangar. The statues had crumbled and cracked over the years. Some were headless, and the huge heads had fallen and crumbled into blocks of stone."
He didn't throw anything other than small pieces of smashed up vehicles - the text explicitly notes he pushed the cruiser across the ground. He didn't throw it.
Nor is it said anywhere about the specific size of the cruiser - but it can't be all that large, given that it's wings were shorter than Obi-Wan, forcing him to duck under them so he wouldn't be hit by them. Regarding Obi-Wan's cruiser earlier in the novel, the only relevant size measure I got was that it was small, and was only intended to hold two individuals - this is the author's idea of what a cruiser would be. Obi-Wan muses that Anakin and Fetus would be cramped together in one:
"The Jedi assembled in the vast hangar in front of the two Republic cruisers they would take to Korriban. They split up the teams, with Siri and Obi-Wan in one cruiser with their Padawans, Soara and Ry-Gaul and their Padawans in the other. That way, the two best pilots in the group - Anakin and Ry-Gaul - would be in different ships.Obi-Wan wished it could be otherwise. He didn't think it wise to put Anakin and Ferus together in a small cruiser until Anakin had cooled down."
Here's the relevant quote regarding Dooku "throwing cruisers":
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.So, the most impressive thing Dooku did was push an ancient wreck of a cruiser at Obi-Wan and Anakin, while amped by Korriban's nexus.Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
It's funny; this is one of Dooku's premiere feats which people have taken to referencing in every debate, and one of carthage's recent memes is making fun of Maul's shuttle feat. Yet, when juxtaposing Maul pulling - which is harder than pushing - a shuttle considerably larger than the cruiser Dooku pushed, Maul comes out looking much better. Especially when you consider that Dooku was in a Legends source, which is exaggerated compared to canon depictions of characters, and was amped by a nexus, compared to Maul who was being shot at, missing a leg, and running with Savage Opress leaning on him with all of his weight. Everything about Maul's feat is better.
Honestly, Obi-Wan has better feats than pushing a wrecked cruiser while amped by a frigging nexus.
Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku throwing around cruisers, doing considerably more damage to Obi with the Force, and adding more power to Sidious than Maul could to Talzin while injured should place him noticeably ahead of Maul, yeah.
Anyway, here’s Maul choking Obi-Wan out, leaving him incapacitated.
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Plo Koon deemed Obi-Wan so badly injured he could no longer take part in the mission to take down Maul and Savage as he would “be a risk to us all”. And Maul wasn’t even trying to kill Obi-Wan. All this time, as is confirmed by Maul during the Mandalore arc, he had no intent on killing Obi-Wan, only capturing him. So when he says he will “slowly crush the life” from Kenobi, he’s indicating that he could be attacking him with far more efficiency than he is at that moment. And at that moment, while toying with Obi-Wan, he’s still doing enough damage to render him incapacitated and unable to keep fighting, even after the choke is released.
So, please, explain to me where Dooku has shown he can “do more damage to Obi-Wan”.
3. Regarding the Talzin vs Sidious fight.
I’ve already brought this point up to you several times. You’ve even acknowledged my posting of it and yet you still continue to make the same argument. It looks like you’re being willfully ignorant, so I’m going to do you a favour and just post all the relevant information and arguments in one concise post. If you keep making the same tired argument after this, I’ll be amazed.
First of all, we’ll establish that Sidious is probably more powerful than Talzin even at her peak, on neutral ground - at best, she is his equal, but it’s unlikely.
Next, Talzin had been weakened ever since her apparent death, and her healing of Maul upon his return. As Maul says, it took much of her life force to heal him:
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5622553-screenshot+2016-12-31+at+12.25.55.png
In order to return to her full power, she needs to drain Dooku in a ritual that results in Dooku’s death. Viscus also notes that the process itself, even if executed perfectly, could weaken Talzin initially, which is why Viscus was getting ready to prepare a chamber for her to rest in:
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And then, obviously, the procedure is interrupted:
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5622554-screenshot+2016-12-31+at+12.26.12.png
Obviously, Dooku is weakened by the fact he was drained, and Sidious hitting him with lightning until Talzin left his body. But Talzin was also clearly weakened twofold by the fact she hadn’t returned to her full power, and the procedure itself, even if executed perfectly, could have weakened her, nevermind if it’s interrupted prematurely. Not only this, but Sidious isn’t just at his full power, but he’s drawing on the Dathomir nexus as well, if it is a nexus.
So, with that in mind, we have a full power Sidious and weakened Dooku vs a weakened Talzin and a full power Maul. We can safely deduce that the reason Sidious won so convincingly is not because of Dooku’s contribution, but because his main opponent was badly weakened. Talzin’s side, with Talzin being weakened, would be of far greater detriment than if Dooku was weakened, given that Talzin contributes much more power to the fight. I’ll remind you that Maul and Dooku are very much within ragdoll range of Sidious-tier characters, so they logically wouldn’t make as much of a difference.
In other words, given how riddled with circumstances the fight is, it’s reaching at best to deduce Dooku > Maul based on it.
Indeed. I look forward to joining their prestigious ranks as someone who is capable of making arguments. 😉
Perhaps you will want to join us soon? I am looking forward to you reconciling Dooku's nexus-enhanced, ancient, wrecked cruiser pushing feat as being out of Maul's radar, Dooku being able to hurt Obi-Wan even more than killing him, and Talzin being weakened against Sidious not mattering.
Who makes arguments these days, tbh? I thought we just blindly spam our agenda opinions?
Also, I am disinterested in debating lately, mostly since I rarely get into gewd debates with decent debaters, but I'll take you up on this since it might be interesting.
Spoiler:
After I finish reading the Sandman series, of course
Alright, let's do this:
Dooku was on a powerful dark side nexus. Relevant quotes:
First of all, your first two quotes are Obi and Anakin's opinions based on the legends they've heard of Korriban. To quote:
"Anakin felt the dread in the room. He knew of Korriban only through legends."
"'The Valley of the Dark Lords,' Obi-Wan said. They had heard of the valley from their earliest days as students at the Temple, had used tales of the valley to scare each other as younglings."
-- Final Showdown
Your other two quotes seem to be more the Dark Side calling to the Jedi, tempting them, more than hindering them. The quotes suggest as much:
"He felt it now, the dark side of the Force emanating from the planet's surface. Looking at the faces of the Jedi, he knew they felt it as well. It had a sick sweetness to it, something that seemed to pour through his veins, attracting and repelling him at once. It was the most complicated surge of the dark side he had ever felt."
-- Final Showdown
"He began to pick up a whisper. Then another. He couldn't make out the words, only the intent. Someone was baiting him, cajoling him, laughing at him... or was it his imagination? Was it just the wind whispering through the stones?"
-- Final Showdown
This doesn't really speak to the nexuses potency, since something very similar happened to the subdued nexus of Ambria during Nomi's training there:
As Thon says, that's the Dark Side tempting the Jedi, testing them, challenging them:
Heck, it might've even been the spirits that opressed Palpatine when he went to Korriban:
The quotes about the valley are valid, but all that really confirms is that the place was a DS nexus, which we already knew. But to what degree? How potent was it? Nothing in the book notes that, to my memory, but Path of Destruction does:
"A chill wind blew across the landing pad as he disembarked, but it didn’t bother Des. After the stale air of the pit, any breeze felt good. He felt a shiver go down his spine as his foot touched Korriban's surface. He'd heard that this had once been a place of great power, though now only the merest shadows remained."
[...]
"Still, he was troubled. He remembered the first time he'd set foot on Korriban. He’d sensed the power of the world: Korriban was alive with the dark side. Yet the feeling had been faint and distant."
"When he’d left the temple and the starport behind, he’d expected that feeling to grow stronger. With each step drawing him closer to the Valley of the Dark Lords he thought he'd feel the dark side growing in its intensity.
Instead he'd felt nothing. No noticeable change at all. He was only a few kilometers away from the valley's entrance; he could see the shaded outlines of the nearest tombs carved from the stone walls. And still the dark side was no stronger than a hollow echo, no more than the lingering memory of distant words spoken in the distant past.
-- Path of Destruction
And keep in mind that Korriban's nexus was continuously weakening according to Palpatine, for seven thousand years:
"Korriban has lost potency over the past 7000 years, but it still whispers of dark secrets."
-- Book of the Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side
So the Dark Side was just tempting the Jedi in question, and Dooku was only amplified by less than "a hollow echo of distant words spoken in the past". It goes without saying that the amp would be all but negligable.
The vehicles were described as "corroded", so it's likely that time and/or the Dark Side allowed them to waste away, meaning less mass and weight, and all of the ships were regarded as "ancient", meaning the corrosive wreck of a ship Dooku pushed was likely falling to bits...
Many of the cruisers are described as a "wreck":
That's fair, age has definitely taken it's toll on the ships.
[B]He didn't throw anything other than small pieces of smashed up vehicles - the text explicitly notes he pushed the cruiser across the ground. He didn't throw it.
Eh? He didn't throw smashed up pieces, lmao. He threw the entire vehicles, and nothing in the text notes the cruiser was pushed across the ground, it's just noted as zooming towards them, i.e. moving quickly.
Nor is it said anywhere about the specific size of the cruiser - but it can't be all that large, given that it's wings were shorter than Obi-Wan, forcing him to duck under them so he wouldn't be hit by them. Regarding Obi-Wan's cruiser earlier in the novel, the only relevant size measure I got was that it was small, and was only intended to hold two individuals - this is the author's idea of what a cruiser would be. Obi-Wan muses that Anakin and Fetus would be cramped together in one:
You're confusing two vehicles, 'Swords. Or maybe you forgot to emphasize a certain part of your quote:
"[He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall."
-- Final Showdown
If you read the qutoe in it's entirety you'd realize the vehicle that could've sliced Obi with it's jagged wings was already avoided when Kenobi "flattened himself against the wall". Next the wording "a cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall" implies it's a separate vehicle for two reasons:
1. If it's the same vehicle with the jagged wings as before, it would've been referred to as the cruiser, that's just basic English grammar.
2. It wouldn't have suddenly zoomed, as it was already moving.
The text simply doesn't align with it being the same vehicle. And before you say how Anakin and Obi-Wan ducked under it, I'd argue that's because the cruiser was thrown, thus it would've left room underneath it to duck under.
Next, the word cruiser itself is used very loosely in the novel, anything from a speeder to a warship can be deemed a "cruiser"(also, Obi's commentary is purely due to Anakin's and Ferus' rivalry, otherwise the cruiser itself has held several Jedi within it). So that makes it even vaguer to determine how big they are, but we know they're large, hulking, giant phantoms. They're meant to be massive. Most Ancient Sith Warships are incredibly large, given just their pods can hold within them two Sith Behemoths(which are, on average, at least 12 meters tall and 6 meters long):
Here's part two on that post:
I've been searching for the ancient Sith Cruisers and the results I found are interesting. At absolute worst, these ships are Sith Starfighters, which are 45 meters long:
^ I think this is the ship that would've sliced Obi to ribbons.
At best, they're the Personnel carriers that are 215 meters long:
Or we can meet each other in the middle, and claim the cruiser was a 75-meter long Escort Gunship:
I'd say the third is most fair, tbh. But even taking the worst of the batch, they're still larger than the ship Maul pulled. And if we're speaking of amps, it's confirmed Maul only pulled the ship down under those circumstances due to a rage-amp:
A rage amp is considerably greater than a "hollow echo" based on all that we've seen characters do while motivated by rage. On top of that, there's the fact that he was in a desperate hour, whereas Dooku wasn't, something that also would've enhanced his abilities.
And finally, the most impressive part isn't really just throwing and flipping some of the ships, but rather how he then kept smashing all the vehicles together into a large pile big enough to block out the entrance to the hanger, that was likened to a mountain:
"Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
-- Final Showdown
The feat is considerably better than Maul's. BTW, I don't use Maul's shuttle feat as a meme, and I quite frankly find it insane, but Tyranus' is just on a greater scale, all things considered.
I'll post part three about Talzin and the Obi example later. 👆
Onto part 3:
How is “doing more damage to Obi-Wan with the Force” even a benchmark? Not only is it untrue, but it’s not even a reliable measurement of Force power given that the circumstances in which Dooku and Maul have choked Obi-Wan - a few moments at best - don’t allow for a rigorous comparison between the two. It’s not like they’re both trying to benchpress the same weight or something.Anyway, here’s Maul choking Obi-Wan out, leaving him incapacitated.
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http://static6.comicvine.com/upload...kingobiwan6.pngPlo Koon deemed Obi-Wan so badly injured he could no longer take part in the mission to take down Maul and Savage as he would “be a risk to us all”. And Maul wasn’t even trying to kill Obi-Wan. All this time, as is confirmed by Maul during the Mandalore arc, he had no intent on killing Obi-Wan, only capturing him. So when he says he will “slowly crush the life” from Kenobi, he’s indicating that he could be attacking him with far more efficiency than he is at that moment. And at that moment, while toying with Obi-Wan, he’s still doing enough damage to render him incapacitated and unable to keep fighting, even after the choke is released.
So, please, explain to me where Dooku has shown he can “do more damage to Obi-Wan”.
I wasn't referring to their respective Force Choking of Obi-Wan. I'm referring to these two instances:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=287
An enraged Darth Maul, desperate to save his apprentice(as per SW.com) telekinetically hurls Obi-Wan with a Force Wave and Kenobi is back up a few seconds later, with just a slight bruise on the head. Compare that to this:
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it."
-- Revenge of the Sith novelisation
The "slighest whipcrack" of Dooku's power sends Obi slamming hard against a wall and leaves him out of the picture for a decent amount of time(about as long as Maul's Force Wave), but Tyranus performs it with much greater ease. Then there's using the Force on Kenobi to accelerate his fall and knock him out for a considerable period of time, again done with ease, while focusing on Anakin. Comparing it to Maul's feat, and Dooku comes out on top.
Regarding the Talzin vs Sidious fight.I’ve already brought this point up to you several times. You’ve even acknowledged my posting of it and yet you still continue to make the same argument. It looks like you’re being willfully ignorant
When did I acknowledge it? I mean, I knew you must've made some form of argument against it, but I never read it. *Shrugs*
Anyways, to break down your argument, I'll concede that Talzin was weakened, but there's several points you omitted. The first one being that the entire thing is happening in the heart of Mother Talzin's power:
Next, by draining Dooku, she would've claimed a power far greater than the one she lost(i.e. she'd be a lot more powerful than she was before the ressurection):
Next, the ritual was actually complete. The point of it was for her to drain enough of his power until she could possess him:
Fact File, StarWars.com and just Maul's general attitude suggest that it was too late for Sidious and Grievous to stop the ritual:
Once the possession was out of the way, it was only a matter of how long it'll take to suck out all of Dooku's juices, and Talzin seems confident she sucked out enough given almost immediately upon her return she screams: I AM WHOLE!
So the things listed above should definitely compensate for whatever exhaustion from the ritual Talzin might've had since she's both at the heart of her power, and by draining Dooku she'd access power greater than what she had before.
Your comparison looks good on paper, but is flimsy when actually put in perspective. You can say Maul and Sheev were at full power, whereas Talzin and Dooku were hindered all you want, but it doesn't balance out. Talzin has factors compensating for her "hinderence", and the hinderence isn't as severe as Dooku's to begin with.
Dooku got struck by the lightning of the most powerful Sith Lord in existence right after having most of his Force reserves drained to allow Talzin to claim "a power far greater than that she had lost". He'd be in a much worse state than Talzin and, unlike her, Tyranus would not have any beneficial factors to partially cancel that out.
And this is not considering the fact that Sidious and Talzin did stalemate each other until Maul and Dooku joined in. Could Sidious have ultimately prevailed? Yes, but at the time it seemed like a dead-even split and then when Maul and Dooku joined, a drastic difference occured.
Heh. This is one of the few times in months I actually semi-tried to make a reasonable case. It was fun.
Good luck, 'Swords. Lets have a nice lil' discussion. 🙂
Originally posted by Kurk
Can we assume a gravitational constant of 9.8 on Korriban and Florrum alike? Different constants can affect the impressiveness of a feat, even if it's a smaller mass.
We can because nobody ever notices a gravitational difference between Korriban/Florrum and most worlds, nor is it ever stated or implied.
