Originally posted by DarthAnt66If their abilities are evenly matched, then they are equals in lightsaber combat, rofl.
I know you have trouble seeing through those tinted glasses but a fight being even or close doesn't mean the combatants themselves are equal. Especially when it's only describing the fight up to that point.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Making up for 10 years of pompous superiority by swearing in every other post I see. 🙂
I've been around for about five years only. Pompous only in your mind, lol. People on CV are fine with what I do, and I certainly don't have a superiority complex. As for the swearing, I'm just experimenting with this "f-word is no longer offensive in Australia" thing 🙂
I never suggested he did. However we can understand such a statement to be true simply because Vader's far more experienced then he was as Anakin, retaining all the knowledge of lightsaber combat he had prior to being placed in the suit and had kept his skills honed by fighting against enemy Force users and training droids having been confirmed to have been constantly improving his lightsaber skill. Ben on the other hand had been confirmed to have degraded as a duelist thus making it logical that he is Vader's inferior.
lol Ben possessed the "knowledge" as well. He just didn't practice any of it. Vader was hindered by his suit and a loss of raw power. So he doesn't just get to build his skill on top of Anakin.
Yes, for the duration that Vader and Obi Wan fought neither Vader nor Obi Wan defeated each other. This is because, as I mentioned, Vader was fighting cautiously having remembered their last engagement. It is my belief that Vader would have defeated him had the engagement been prolonged but if he hadn't that would be solely because of Ben's growth in power given we know he degraded in every other area and Vader himself was more powerful and logically more skilled then he was as Anakin.
Vader would've won due to greater stamina, not anything else. He fought apprehensively, which Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force acknowledges, but it also states that his armour hindered him as well.
Vader was more powerful than Anakin in a mastered sense, not a raw sense (Anakin's raw power exceeds any other Jedi/Sith). The way power factors into dueling is that your raw power determines your inherent aptitude for wielding a lightsaber. From then on, it's up to practice and growth with a blade. Vader's raw power was in fact stunted - so he would've only gone backwards, not to mention his suit hindrance. So no, Vader isn't "logically more skilled than Anakin", especially not when quotes outright tell us that he's a mere shadow of his former self.
See this is where your argument falls apart. The basis for such a stance is that Anakin is somehow above Vader but since that's not the case we know Ben's growth in power was at least enough to allow him to contend with a superior opponent to Anakin which suggests overall superiority to his RotS incarnation as a lightsaber combatant despite a degradation in skill.
Or maybe this is a wake-up call for you to ditch that "power growth" nonsense that you take way too far. Your argument's the one that falls apart because I can easily reconcile everything with my approach to this. Your approach relies on your personal belief of what's logical and then you have to throw out material that disagrees with you.
Ben and Vader are shadows of their former selves in dueling. It's stated. There's nothing around it. Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader. Vader's feats are worse than Anakin's. Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force states that Vader's been hindered. Vader has a hard time with a pale shadow of RotS Obi-Wan.
Just get out of denial and acknowledge the facts.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And like I said to ShootingNova Ben's performance is based on his power growth and has no impact on the comparison between Vader and RotS Kenobi.
Power growth which Vader didn't even notice in Death Star, whilst Vader immediately noticed Ben's deterioration in skill. This "power growth" thing is a personal thing and just a way for you to satisfy your denial. The facts have already been presented - it's time for you to wake up and acknowledge them instead of forever trying to deny them and find ways to get around them.
Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Ben possessed the "knowledge" as well. He just didn't practice any of it. Vader was hindered by his suit and a loss of raw power. So he doesn't just get to build his skill on top of Anakin.
Yes but he didn't practice and employ the knowledge as Vader did which is the key difference between them. The only hindrance the suit provided being mobility and as is mentioned in numerous sources is something Vader adapted to.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader would've won due to greater stamina, not anything else. He fought apprehensively, which Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force acknowledges, but it also states that his armour hindered him as well.
In your opinion he would have won due to greater stamina. I believe his general superiority would have done so with my opinion being backed up by their comparative feats and logical skill at that point. It hindered his mobility, yes. Nothing else.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader was more powerful than Anakin in a mastered sense, not a raw sense (Anakin's raw power exceeds any other Jedi/Sith). The way power factors into dueling is that your raw power determines your inherent aptitude for wielding a lightsaber. From then on, it's up to practice and growth with a blade. Vader's raw power was in fact stunted - so he would've only gone backwards, not to mention his suit hindrance. So no, Vader isn't "logically more skilled than Anakin", especially not when quotes outright tell us that he's a mere shadow of his former self.
He was stated to be more powerful in multiple quotes. Just because you choose to misinterpret quotes and justify those misinterpretations with BS reasoning doesn't change that fact. Power factors into a duel in that your applicable power allows you to augment yourself to certain levels and if you have superior augmentation in conjunction with equal or superior skill you'll likely win. This is dependent on a variety of factors including the extent said individual is able to augment themselves. Vader's potential was stunted, yes. His applicable power was superior to Anakin's own. And at the end of it all it appears you're trying to equate skill with the ability to augment yourself. Bravo. Vader is a shadow of his former self in potential and in a few other areas such as mobility sure. Going by quotes and demonstrated showings he isn't in any other regard.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Or maybe this is a wake-up call for you to ditch that "power growth" nonsense that you take way too far. Your argument's the one that falls apart because I can easily reconcile everything with my approach to this. Your approach relies on your personal belief of what's logical and then you have to throw out material that disagrees with you.
My approach relies on cnaonical quotes. Your approach is reconciled through fanboyism ( likely to keep Dooku from being lowered ), hyperbolic RotS quotes and unspecific quotes form decades ago you attempt to twist in an effort to suit your bias.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ben and Vader are shadows of their former selves in dueling. It's stated. There's nothing around it. Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader. Vader's feats are worse than Anakin's. Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force states that Vader's been hindered. Vader has a hard time with a pale shadow of RotS Obi-Wan.
Ben is a shadow of his former self in physical ability and skill. Vader is a shadow of his former self in regards to potential and mobility.
"Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader."
Quote?
Vader has been hindered after being put into the suit, yes. In his ability to draw on greater amounts of raw power when enraged and his mobility. Which, when taking into account Ben's superior augmentation doesn't mean jack diddly squat. What you're failing to understand is that Ben being an overall inferior combatant is only justifiable if we didn't have quotes already confirming Vader's superiority to his former self. Since we do the point is moot.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just get out of denial and acknowledge the facts.
Maybe once you do. 🙂
Originally posted by SunRazer
Power growth which Vader didn't even notice in Death Star, whilst Vader immediately noticed Ben's deterioration in skill. This "power growth" thing is a personal thing and just a way for you to satisfy your denial. The facts have already been presented - it's time for you to wake up and acknowledge them instead of forever trying to deny them and find ways to get around them.
The novel doesn't note it, no. That doesn't mean Vader didn't notice it. But this is your MO. Trying to twist the meaning of certain passages based on their wording or assuming it means something favorable to your position when it lacks clarity.
It's a way to logically explain why someone who's superior to Anakin Skywalker would perform as he did against Ben despite Ben having been confirmed to have decreased both in base physical stats and skill.
The difference between you and I is that I will never deny canonical quotes because it doesn't suit my personal bias.
This is frankly starting to get frustrating.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes but he didn't practice and employ the knowledge as Vader did which is the key difference between them. The only hindrance the suit provided being mobility and as is mentioned in numerous sources is something Vader adapted to.
Adapting to something means rolling with the punches. You still get punched, though - the hindrance is still there. Vader learned to reduce it by changing his form etc, but that didn't eliminate it completely. And the Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that the speed/agility issue affected Vader in his ANH duel with Ben.
In your opinion he would have won due to greater stamina. I believe his general superiority would have done so with my opinion being backed up by their comparative feats and logical skill at that point. It hindered his mobility, yes. Nothing else.
No, he only would've won due to greater stamina according to every ****ing source that portrays the fight. Fightsaber literally confirms that Vader couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses until the latter dropped them. Show me a source that indicates that Vader was just flat-out, irrefutably better than Obi-Wan in dueling.
He was stated to be more powerful in multiple quotes.
We've been through this. And I accepted the one that was indisputable. Obviously it refers to mastered power as opposed to raw power, though.
Just because you choose to misinterpret quotes and justify those misinterpretations with BS reasoning doesn't change that fact. Power factors into a duel in that your applicable power allows you to augment yourself to certain levels and if you have superior augmentation in conjunction with equal or superior skill you'll likely win.
Except Vader didn't have equal or superior skill. The whole suit thing was like a reset button - he couldn't even fight like he used to anymore. He had to change his style completely. It was starting again from scratch. So again, it's not just Vader getting more augmentation on top of his RotS incarnation like you're throwing around.
This is dependent on a variety of factors including the extent said individual is able to augment themselves. Vader's potential was stunted, yes. His applicable power was superior to Anakin's own. And at the end of it all it appears you're trying to equate skill with the ability to augment yourself. Bravo. Vader is a shadow of his former self in potential and in a few other areas such as mobility sure. Going by quotes and demonstrated showings he isn't in any other regard.
This just proves you're not even reading my points. You're a ****ing pain to debate for this reason. I'm not equating skill with augmentation. I made the distinction of how they are related to Force power - augmentation is related to mastered power, whereas skill, raw skill, is derived from raw power. Get it through your head.
My approach relies on cnaonical quotes.
All of our quotes are canonical, proto-brain.
Your approach is reconciled through fanboyism ( likely to keep Dooku from being lowered )
What does this have to do with Dooku? If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I like Obi-Wan more than Dooku, lol. And my character biases don't influence my character judgments. You probably wouldn't know, since you blindly accuse people of things.
Anyway, who are you to talk about fanboyism? You're the laughingstock of the forum whenever you talk about Galen, and you've admitted you only take quotes on arbitrary whims. So I can just as easily - and with far more credence - say that you're doing this to raise Vader so that you can, in turn, raise Galen. After all, Galen's far more relevant to ANH Vader than Dooku.
hyperbolic RotS quotes
Like what? I'm not even bringing up the ones from the RotS novel.
And if a quote is hyperbolic, it's still rooted in truth. So the point will still stand - it's just depicted colourfully.
and unspecific quotes form decades ago you attempt to twist in an effort to suit your bias.
Again, like what? Everyone has their biases - the difference being that I've got a reputation for not allowing biases to cloud my judgment on things. Ask the good debaters on CV, who don't know anything about SW (which eliminates their own biases on the matter, as opposed to asking people on KMC). I'm known for being objective, factual, and analytical. And frankly, even if I wasn't, this blatant hurling of bias accusations without any basis just shows how pathetic your case is.
Ben is a shadow of his former self in physical ability and skill. Vader is a shadow of his former self in regards to potential and mobility.
Lol, according to what? The article was about lightsaber combat overall, and it mentions them both being shadows in the same sentence, without specifying any difference between the two.
You go on to accuse me of this:
Trying to twist the meaning of certain passages based on their wording or assuming it means something favorable to your position when it lacks clarity.
Yet you're doing it right now. Lmfao
Absolute ****leg.
"Lucas himself states that Anakin > Vader."Quote?
Here:
In an effort to top the light saber battles of the first Star Wars movies, Lucas is attempting to bring a more dynamic element to the new swordplay that will be occurring between the Jedi masters and their chief opponent, the maleficent Darth Maul, played by martial arts expert Ray Park. “I was looking for the kind of sword-fighting we had already done,” said Lucas, “but I wanted a more energized version of it, because we actually never really saw the Jedi’s at work—we’d only seen old men (Obi-Wan), crippled half-droid, half-men (Darth Vader), and young boys (Luke). To see the Jedi fighting in their prime, I wanted a much more energetic and faster version of what we’d been doing.”-- http://cinefantastiqueonline.com/2012/02/george-lucas-on-the-phantom-menace/
Which makes it blindingly obvious that Vader isn't in his prime as a swordsman.
Lucas also confirms that Vader's raw power is lesser than Anakin's, which is again the thing that factors into skill.
“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”-- http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/02/star-wars-george-lucas-story
I know you're going to contest these and claim that I'm biased again, anyway. Ah, **** me, **** me, **** me.
Vader has been hindered after being put into the suit, yes. In his ability to draw on greater amounts of raw power when enraged and his mobility.Which, when taking into account Ben's superior augmentation doesn't mean jack diddly squat.
Ben's superior augmentation? He's confirmed to have slowed, you ****ing brick. Nowhere is his augmentation suggested to have improved. It's clear that the tarnishing factors of his physicality were far more important than some unspecified and utterly unnoticeable growth in power that you keep having fantasies about.
A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
Oh, no, but I'm twisting this quote to suit my Dooku biases, and the quote doesn't even mention Ben's augmentation, so it must've forgotten to factor that in. Boohoohoohoohoo.
**** off.
What you're failing to understand is that Ben being an overall inferior combatant is only justifiable if we didn't have quotes already confirming Vader's superiority to his former self. Since we do the point is moot
Or maybe Vader isn't superior to his former self. Have you just considered how you could reconcile everything if you didn't hold onto your personal fantasies regarding the situation? Have you considered that Ben's augmentation might not have improved all along because he was out of practice with that as well? As in, his skill in actually using the Force to augment himself declined, so that his power growth ultimately didn't even matter?
The quotes confirm that Ben is overall an inferior combatant, you ****ing donkey. Show me quotes for Vader being superior to his former self in every way. Because I'm actually curious about them. They might help to re-evaluate my stance on this.
We know from the quote I posted directly above that "power growth-based augmentation" is in fact overridden by physical ailments (such as Ben's age/lack of practice), which includes Vader's suit. Prove that the augmentation boost would've circumvented such a hindrance. We know from quotes that Ben's apparently improved augmentation didn't make him for his physical loss of speed, so prove - irrefutably - that Vader's augmentation would make up for his suit. Otherwise, can you not at least see the possibility that Vader's suit hindered him more than his augmentation enhanced him, and that therefore he overall declined as a combatant? Which is what Fightsaber, Lucas etc. were saying all along?
Come on, man.
Maybe once you do. 🙂
I have. You've yet to do so. You're not even giving me the courtesy of actually reading my posts. You keep misquoting and misinterpreting me all the ****ing time.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The novel doesn't note it, no. That doesn't mean Vader didn't notice it. But this is your MO. Trying to twist the meaning of certain passages based on their wording or assuming it means something favorable to your position when it lacks clarity.
It means that Vader recognizes Ben's deterioration in skill moreso than his power growth, lol. If the power growth made up for it, then Vader would be recognizing that, instead of the deterioration in skill. It's blindingly obvious as to what's more prevalent here. You're in a desperate state of denial right now and you can't even admit it.
That's like saying the passage says there's two separate boxes, but it doesn't say there's one box plus another box, so you're making a blatant assumption and twisting the meaning of the quote.
It's a way to logically explain why someone who's superior to Anakin Skywalker would perform as he did against Ben despite Ben having been confirmed to have decreased both in base physical stats and skill.
Logical for you isn't logical for anyone else - you're living in your own deluded, illusory world. And I'm not a psychologist, so it's not my job to make you wake up. I'm just giving you the facts. If you want to twist them as you do, then you do that. I've had enough of this.
You're not even opening your mind to what I'm saying. Everything I say isn't logical to you - only what you say is. And you just keep repeating yourself end on end without even opening your mind to the possibility of something else. What a joke.
The difference between you and I is that I will never deny canonical quotes because it doesn't suit my personal bias.
You're doing it even as we speak, lmfao. Way to destroy your own credibility. You're infamous for doing just that, too. Get a grip on reality. Because your argument on this case is a ****ing joke. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling people out on all these problems and yet exhibiting them in the exact same post.
I'm at least listening to you, trying to reason with you, and opening my mind to outside arguments. Can I at least get the same from you? Or is everything I say inherently flawed, biased, and irredeemable while you sit there preaching the will of God in a heavenly choir voice? Because if you continue to show that you don't care about the possibility that you're wrong, I'll start to show that I don't care about you.
God, this is getting annoying, lol.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Adapting to something means rolling with the punches. You still get punched, though - the hindrance is still there. Vader learned to reduce it by changing his form etc, but that didn't eliminate it completely. And the Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that the speed/agility issue affected Vader in his ANH duel with Ben.
I don't think it would be enough of a hindrance to counter balance Vader's superiority in the Force to his former self personally. I assume you believe differently?
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, he only would've won due to greater stamina according to every ****ing source that portrays the fight. Fightsaber literally confirms that Vader couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses until the latter dropped them. Show me a source that indicates that Vader was just flat-out, irrefutably better than Obi-Wan in dueling.
I'm saying it's logical that he is given he's actually fought opponents and practiced and has been confirmed to have grown in skill over the last several decades while Obi Wan has not. And those sources you're touting only account for the portion of the fight up to the point Obi Wan allowed himself to become one with the Force. The portion in which Vader was fighting against Ben cautiously.
Originally posted by SunRazer
We've been through this. And I accepted the one that was indisputable. Obviously it refers to mastered power as opposed to raw power, though.
The other quotes were just as legitimate. And I'm saying the quote you accepted refers to applicable power. I'm not going to budge on this and it seems you aren't either which is the crux of our problem as it's the hinge of the entire discussion.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Except Vader didn't have equal or superior skill. The whole suit thing was like a reset button - he couldn't even fight like he used to anymore. He had to change his style completely. It was starting again from scratch. So again, it's not just Vader getting more augmentation on top of his RotS incarnation like you're throwing around.
Vader retains all of his technical knowledge of the forms. Given he has a superior baseline physical body to work with ( albeit with inferior mobility ) and superior applicable power to Anakin I feel confident he was able to regain an equal or greater level of applicable skill over the course of 20 years when before he had become the greatest Djem So specialist Dooku had ever seen within the timespan of the Clone Wars ( 2-3 years ).
Originally posted by SunRazer
This just proves you're not even reading my points. You're a ****ing pain to debate for this reason. I'm not equating skill with augmentation. I made the distinction of how they are related to Force power - augmentation is related to mastered power, whereas skill, raw skill, is derived from raw power. Get it through your head.
Raw skill is NOT related to raw power. Raw ability as a lightsaber combatant isn't even related to raw power if you're equating raw power with potential but rather applicable power. I'm well aware of the type of BS you're trying to pull here, probably the reason you find me such a chore to debate.
Originally posted by SunRazer
All of our quotes are canonical, proto-brain.
The quotes you use are canonical but the meaning you derive from them is not.
Originally posted by SunRazer
What does this have to do with Dooku? If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I like Obi-Wan more than Dooku, lol. And my character biases don't influence my character judgments. You probably wouldn't know, since you blindly accuse people of things.Anyway, who are you to talk about fanboyism? You're the laughingstock of the forum whenever you talk about Galen, and you've admitted you only take quotes on arbitrary whims. So I can just as easily - and with far more credence - say that you're doing this to raise Vader so that you can, in turn, raise Galen. After all, Galen's far more relevant to ANH Vader than Dooku.
Of course they do. I have a screen cap of Ant admitting to you removing your posts from some of his blogs in exchange for a deal. This is likely when Ant started placing Traya around Dooku level.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Like what? I'm not even bringing up the ones from the RotS novel.And if a quote is hyperbolic, it's still rooted in truth. So the point will still stand - it's just depicted colourfully.
Lmao. You call Anakin > Yoda quotes as colorful depictions of the truth. I don't think anything needs to be said here.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, like what? Everyone has their biases - the difference being that I've got a reputation for not allowing biases to cloud my judgment on things. Ask the good debaters on CV, who don't know anything about SW (which eliminates their own biases on the matter, as opposed to asking people on KMC). I'm known for being objective, factual, and analytical. And frankly, even if I wasn't, this blatant hurling of bias accusations without any basis just shows how pathetic your case is.
Refer to the evidence suggesting otherwise 2 posts up.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Lol, according to what? The article was about lightsaber combat overall, and it mentions them both being shadows in the same sentence, without specifying any difference between the two.You go on to accuse me of this:
According to other quotes which contradict the idea of Vader being inferior in any areas that I didn't already admit to him being inferior in.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Which makes it blindingly obvious that Vader isn't in his prime as a swordsman.Lucas also confirms that Vader's raw power is lesser than Anakin's, which is again the thing that factors into skill.
No it doesn't. The quote is just Lucas giving an excuse for why the technological limitations of the time did not allow for Vader, Luke and Ben to be depicted as "fast." Are we to assume Qui Gon Jinn and TPM Obi Wan are faster then Vader or RotJ Luke simply because they moved as blurs in the movies? No, that'd be ridiculous.
I don't care about Vader's raw or potential power as I don't think raw power = raw skill or whatever nonsense you were spewing. I care about applicable power which Vader is confirmed to be stronger then Anakin in.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I know you're going to contest these and claim that I'm biased again, anyway. Ah, **** me, **** me, **** me.
Holy shit! I made you have a temper tantrum. 🙂
Nova right now:
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ben's superior augmentation? He's confirmed to have slowed, you ****ing brick. Nowhere is his augmentation suggested to have improved. It's clear that the tarnishing factors of his physicality were far more important than some unspecified and utterly unnoticeable growth in power that you keep having fantasies about.
What you fail to grasp is that Vader being confirmed to be more powerful and thus faster then Anakin along with Obi Wan necessitates that Ben have increased in augmentation by a fair amount when you consider he has slowed physically and degraded in skill.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Oh, no, but I'm twisting this quote to suit my Dooku biases, and the quote doesn't even mention Ben's augmentation, so it must've forgotten to factor that in. Boohoohoohoohoo.**** off.
I gotta say. I like this feisty side of you. Better then that pompous attitude you had before anyways.