Modern Maul: Was He Fully Trained?

There's plenty of older Legends sources, Book of Sith from 2013 being most recent, claiming Sidious kept some cards to his chest while training Maul. That Maul had a very specific purpose - to kill Jedi and perform missions in the shadows for Sidious - and to be honest and frank, yes, this was the original 2000s inception of his character. Used up and spat out, Boba Fett style. And yes, it makes it very hard to resurrect such a character after you've cut him in half and start doing new things with him, especially in the narrow creative framework that is TCW; the short time between AotC and RotS wherein, at best, some supplementary events for the movies and unique stories can take place, but nothing to change the main storyline of Star Wars.

With that said, I can't help but notice the overwhelming evidence from all more modern sources that Maul's training was not particularly specialised; in fact, some of these sources go as far as to say that Maul's training was nothing short of the best Sidious could offer. I think it's self-evident from TCW, what with manufacturing a micro-RoT plotline with Savage/shadowy power base out of virtual thin air, that Maul's character took a permanent deviation from the original concept. Instead of an incredibly lethal weapon and nothing else, we have additionally a fully fledged, manipulative, cunning and adept Sith Lord.

I'll start with a few observations and points.

1. Relatively recent canon sourcebooks, such as Ultimate Star Wars, echo from a decade old Fact File and other sources that Maul is "one of the most highly trained Sith Lords" or "apprentices in Sith history." As well most dangerous, lethal, skilled etc. While this doesn't conclude my point by itself, it's certainly not suggesting the reverse. It's a step in the right direction.

2. People see a lack of Force Lightning as some huge detriment. Whether we'll get a real answer on why Maul doesn't use it, we'll never know. It is true that among canon Sith Lords, he's the only one who doesn't have an excuse for not using it (Vader and his suit). Instead of speculating on why that is, I'm going to go ahead and say it's just not relevant. Is it a useful tool to have in your arsenal? You betcha. Does it prevent me from making my argument? Apparently not, as my evidence below will hopefully suggest. Remember that it is the construct of fans, not creators, that Force Lightning is a necessity to be considered a fully trained Sith Lord. For all we know, Maul can't use it for genetic reasons, or something equally stupid.

3. A question I would pose to people is this: what motive could Sidious have had to train an apprentice who is sub-par? One of the primary Sith directives is to kill the Jedi, in order to wrest power from them and dominate the galaxy. If nothing else, regardless of the obvious manipulative, psychological and political talents Maul now has, Maul was evidently trained to be as good at killing Jedi as possible. Perhaps Sidious did leave something out of Maul's training - it's evident he doesn't tell everyone everything. But why would he restrict knowledge that helps Maul fulfil the primary directive of the Sith? A point that is inevitably raised is what Sidious said to Plagueis in Darth Plagueis, regarding Maul not being a true Sith Lord, but rather a tool for their own purposes. But apparently those who raise the point did not read, forgot or ignored the later parts of the book wherein Sidious muses his double life of being both a master and an apprentice, or where Plagueis gleans a father-son-esque relationship between the two, or where Sidious gloats over a dying Plagueis that him and Maul will be fulfilling the grand plan without him. Clearly, telling the guy you want to learn everything from that you are fully intent on replacing him once you have is a nonsensical thing for Sidious to do, and the book demonstrates this well, even if it's gone over more heads than every american football in history.

With that out the way, let's get to the evidence. I know variety is the spice of life here on KMC; anything from the most obscure Legends sources on the backs of Embo bath salts to the highest authority of canon is worthy of consideration depending on the debater, so, I'll put them in categories. Note I haven't included every scrap of evidence for the point I could ever muster, just things I've held onto and others I discovered today.

Dave Filoni, Sam Witwer and by proxy George Lucas

Dave being the director of the episodes in which Maul is resurrected suggests to me he might know what he’s talking about regarding Maul’s new character. Sam was heavily involved with the creative process, which makes sense since he had to become Darth Maul - Dave has said he has taken ideas from Sam for Maul, and is happy to leave him to speak freely about Maul during heavily populated Q&As, while sitting next to him. And the kicker is that every decision for these Maul episodes went straight through Lucas. In fact, it was Lucas’ idea in the first place that Maul go through this transformation. Him challenging Sidious in some manner, and establishing a power base in the crime underworld, was George’s idea (it was ironically also his idea to cut him in half).

So I take their word seriously if they aren’t expressing it as an opinion, but rather answering an enquiry that requires a specific answer. I know some do and some don’t.

Dave Filoni explains that Maul is trained in “all types of Sith ways”, not the least of which is manipulation, among heaps of other praise. You can see why I stopped giving a shit about lightning a while ago.

[After discussing the validity of Ventress and Savage’s claims to being considered Sith] Maul is a super dangerous threat because he has been trained for years. He’s really adept. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and you know he, he’s a bit severed from what he knew which was having a master but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways. Not the least of which is manipulation. Again, I don’t want to give too much away... [so clearly this isn’t an opinion if he’s giving us something factual but “doesn’t want to give too” many facts away]

https://youtu.be/Mr-6Lfkvxkk?t=2m38s

Next, one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard come from Filoni’s mouth: Maul was trained in Sidious’ likeness.

[The interviewer gets done discussing how Maul seems far more calculating, intelligent, no longer just a living breathing weapon devoid of thought etc compared to his TPM self]”Yeah I think the root of all that thought is that if he is a good apprentice to Sidious he needs to train him in his likeness really, and he teach him what he knows. Sith by their nature can’t be so overt. He is a deadly weapon cause George needed him to be that in The Phantom Menace, but he didn’t have the time to get into more who he is. If you listen to the few times he speaks, he is very subservient and he doesn’t come across as someone who is very dim. He comes across really rather sharp, which I think makes your villain that much more effective.”

Now I could get into Witwer, but I’m thinking that’s sufficient for the point. Witwer says nothing Filoni hasn’t already stated overtly here.

Legends

So we already mentioned the plentiful sources describing Maul as “one of the most highly trained” Sith ever, but here’s something even more explicit to serve my point:

"A deadly combatant and powerful Sith Lord, Maul spent his entire life in servitude to the dark side of the Force. Taken from his home at a very early age by Darth Sidious, Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, becoming the living embodiment of evil."

I’m aware it’s a shit-tier source (hence why Ant found it), but the purpose of the source is to inform fans on the more subtle nuances of the characters. And, clearly, people buy them, so I’m not going to hypocritically dismiss it in favour of a Fact File, which functions identically for all intents and purposes.

Canon
I’m going to go ahead and ask that you just use some basic reasoning here:

According to Sidious “there can only be two, and you have been replaced” - we all agree Dooku is a “fully trained Sith Lord” with his Lightning and all, so I’m wondering how it’s possible to replace a non-Sith Lord with a Sith Lord… in the Rule of Two. Surely if Maul wasn’t trained properly he wouldn’t need replacing.

On that basis, especially for those who preach Lightning as the counter-argument for this post, how can this paradox exist unless Dooku is also not a proper Sith Lord? How do we know him or Vader are “true Sith Lords” if they, for all their talents, are being compared to a guy with purposely gimped training? It doesn’t make any sense.

Or how about this: do you teach a mindless killing machine, devoid of thought, how to establish a power-base capable of contending with the full might of the CIS, in the space of months, using only one’s ability to manipulate people like pawns on a chessboard? Maul personally wrested power from the hands of each major member of the galaxy’s criminal underworld, and then combined their strength underneath his iron fist, all without alerting the Jedi or Sith. He would go on to additionally become the shadow-leader of Mandalore, who control 1,000 neutral systems in addition to their own people, after successfully dethroning two of it’s most influential leaders, one after another, and installing a third as his proxy.

No, you do not teach a mindless killing machine how to do that. You teach that to someone who is “well trained in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.”

We could also mention that Maul did something only another Sith Lord was able to do; survive grievous bodily injury through drawing on the power of the Dark Side. According to Sam Witwer, Maul’s survival was unprecedented even for Sidious, and “planted the seed” in Sidious’ head that Vader could survive a similar injury (he’s said this in multiple interviews and Filoni seemingly is nonplussed, so I take it seriously as a small quirk hidden inside the bigger picture of Star Wars’ story),

But even just ignore Sam, if that’s your preference, and acknowledge that we have people like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dropping left, right and centre from relatively paltry injuries like being stabbed and slashed. Granted they are Jedi, but then look at Savage.

Anyway, if you disagree, this is the place for it. I’ll provide sources for some of my unsubstantiated claims on request, but most people reading this have seen them.

I was wondering if that miniature quote was gonna come up. 🙂

I don't see why this would be in question, of course he's fully trained.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I don't see why this would be in question, of course he's fully trained.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them.

Originally posted by ILS
He's always been a fully trained fighter, but people there's still those who say he's not a fully trained Sith.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them.

Since when is there a criteria for who needs to know what in order to be a Sith Lord?

Originally posted by ILS
He's always been a fully trained fighter, but people there's still those who say he's not a fully trained Sith.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them.

I totally forgot to mention the recent developments in Rebels regarding Holocrons. Yeah, you do not gimp the training of a guy who not only knows how to access ancient Sith holocrons, but combine them with Jedi holocrons in order to uncover knowledge the participant otherwise would not have had the faintest clue of. The telepathy was also nice, and I think there's a fair comparison to be made there, between a Sith Lord and a pretender: Kylo Ren got his shit handed to him by Rey trying to pull off the knowledge-ripping technique, but Maul pulls it off with impetuous ease (albeit on a non-Force sensitive), and also projected those illusions into Ezra's mind so thoroughly he nearly killed a guy.

There's plenty of discussion in Rebels regarding Maul's extensive knowledge of intricate Sith techniques/customs. More fuel to the fire or nah?

I don't think there's any doubt in terms of Canon. Legends seems to have been "retconned" on the issue.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Since when is there a criteria for who needs to know what in order to be a Sith Lord?

Not everyone is on-board, so this is my case.

Originally posted by ILS
Since Star Wars fans have had opinions. Also, I'm not merely discussing qualification to be considered Sith - Savage Opress has been called a Sith by many sources - but rather "fully trained". As in, Sidious did not hold back any of his teachings from Maul that he considered relevant to training the most complete Sith possible.

Not everyone is on-board, so this is my case.

Well being blunt, opinions don't mean much when coming to this. If someone is a fully trained Sith Lord....then they are a fully trained Sith Lord.

I mean Vader didn't know anywhere near the stuff Sidious did, yet he's considered a fully trained Sith Lord right?

If going into Legends, Darth Malgus was a fully trained Sith Lord right? He certainly didn't know any rituals or weird powers or whatever.

It seems to me, there's no real set qualifications on how to become a Sith Lord.

So...yeah, Maul is a fully trained Sith in either canon.

Nice write up though regardless.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well being blunt, opinions don't mean much when coming to this. If someone is a fully trained Sith Lord....then they are a fully trained Sith Lord.

I mean Vader didn't know anywhere near the stuff Sidious did, yet he's considered a fully trained Sith Lord right?

If going into Legends, Darth Malgus was a fully trained Sith Lord right? He certainly didn't know any rituals or weird powers or whatever.

It seems to me, there's no real set qualifications on how to become a Sith Lord.

So...yeah, Maul is a fully trained Sith in either canon.

Nice write up though regardless.

But I'm taking it a step further and saying Sidious didn't leave a scrap of relevant information out of his training. Maul was the real deal, he would have been fit to continue the RoT in Sidious' stead, and by proxy of this, even receives partial Banite scaling.

Enough scaling to say that, say, Bane, who is so redundant even at his peak to Sidious that the notion of him taking the reins of the Rule of Two is about as likely as snow cracking bedrock open, wouldn't have a chance in hell of beating Maul in a fight, or any other contest between two Sith.

Thanks! Appreciate it.

The only problem is that we have no idea how close Maul was to completing his training - other than not being close at all (since he wasn't anywhere near Sidious by TPM). I'm not sure you can directly scale Maul off Bane for that reason.

How many years did Maul spend under Sidious?

Also, I'm finding it interesting that Sidious was still giving Tyranus and Vader access to more or less equivalent training and material despite knowing full well that they'd never surpass him. Maybe he just didn't think it'd be of any consequence to him.

Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't.

I think ILS meant "fully trained" as in taught in all aspects. He definitely wasn't anywhere close to surpassing Palpatine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't.

The only problem is that we have no idea how close Maul was to completing his training - other than not being close at all (since he wasn't anywhere near Sidious by TPM). I'm not sure you can directly scale Maul off Bane for that reason.

How many years did Maul spend under Sidious?

We know his access to resources shit all over Bane's, from information available, to training techniques and quality of mentors.

We know Maul's indoctrination into the Sith was done at a far more critical stage (infancy through to adulthood) in his lifetime.

And we also know that, comparing their time spent immersed in the Dark Side, Maul spent longer. Bane started his illustrious career as a Sith G.I at like 18 and died at 46. So 28 years.

Maul was virtually a baby, we'll say 2 for the sake of simplicity. In Legends, to our knowledge, that's 14-16 years of training before Sidious crowned him a Sith Lord with complete training. Maul then spent the next roughly 7 years doing nothing but relentless training, and engaging in countless - often grueling - missions for Sidious. Note that tribulation is necessary for Sith growth, so Maul had no shortage of this.

So we're at the 20 year mark for Dark Side immersion at TPM, where I would assume Maul is already better than Bane. All that insane manipulative skill and RoT-esque behaviour he displays in TCW was honed to perfection prior to TPM. I don't think TPM Maul would do any worse than Bane at furthering the order from this point on, if he had to.

But for the sake of argument, let's keep going. We're at year 20. What does Maul spend the next 12 years doing? Descending into a living nightmare of insane, horrific agony, resentment, disgust, regret, fear, anger and sheer hatred. He lived his own worse nightmare again, and again, and again until he lost his mind, and then he kept going. And he ate raw lizards the whole time.

So that's 32 years spent growing his power? Already 4 ahead of Bane? Bearing in mind all of the disparities in equality I mentioned at the start? Then Maul spends maybe a year, maybe less than a year during TCW growing all the more powerful from his various tribulations and traumas, not the least of which is Talzin and Savage getting the axe right before his eyes.

But then, it gets better, because 20 years later still, Maul re-appears in Rebels. All evidence suggests he spent his time scouring ancient Sith temples, accumulating resources, killing inquisitors, and probably a ridiculous amount of bitter self-loathing, and resentment for everyone who robbed him of his life purpose, which again, is going to keep pissing him off and thus keep immersing him further into the Dark Side.

That's over 30 years more time spent than Bane growing his power, and dare i say it, Maul has been through at least as much as shit as Bane has with his daddy issues and orbalisks. So yeah, while I don't expect anyone to get on-board with such a convoluted argument, I find it insanely hard to believe that Maul isn't well beyond Bane.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't.

Originally posted by ILS
We know Maul has to have more potential than Bane, thus a faster aptitude for learning Force abilities.

We know his access to resources shit all over Bane's, from information available, to training techniques and quality of mentors.

We know Maul's indoctrination into the Sith was done at a far more critical stage (infancy through to adulthood) in his lifetime.

And we also know that, comparing their time spent immersed in the Dark Side, Maul spent longer. Bane started his illustrious career as a Sith G.I at like 18 and died at 46. So 28 years.

Maul was virtually a baby, we'll say 2 for the sake of simplicity. In Legends, to our knowledge, that's 14-16 years of training before Sidious crowned him a Sith Lord with complete training. Maul then spent the next roughly 7 years doing nothing but relentless training, and engaging in countless - often grueling - missions for Sidious. Note that tribulation is necessary for Sith growth, so Maul had no shortage of this.

So we're at the 20 year mark for Dark Side immersion at TPM, where I would assume Maul is already better than Bane. All that insane manipulative skill and RoT-esque behaviour he displays in TCW was honed to perfection prior to TPM. I don't think TPM Maul would do any worse than Bane at furthering the order from this point on, if he had to.

But for the sake of argument, let's keep going. We're at year 20. What does Maul spend the next 12 years doing? Descending into a living nightmare of insane, horrific agony, resentment, disgust, regret, fear, anger and sheer hatred. He lived his own worse nightmare again, and again, and again until he lost his mind, and then he kept going. And he ate raw lizards the whole time.

So that's 32 years spent growing his power? Already 4 ahead of Bane? Bearing in mind all of the disparities in equality I mentioned at the start? Then Maul spends maybe a year, maybe less than a year during TCW growing all the more powerful from his various tribulations and traumas, not the least of which is Talzin and Savage getting the axe right before his eyes.

But then, it gets better, because 20 years later still, Maul re-appears in Rebels. All evidence suggests he spent his time scouring ancient Sith temples, accumulating resources, killing inquisitors, and probably a ridiculous amount of bitter self-loathing, and resentment for everyone who robbed him of his life purpose, which again, is going to keep pissing him off and thus keep immersing him further into the Dark Side.

That's over [b]30 years more time spent than Bane growing his power, and dare i say it, Maul has been through at least as much as shit as Bane has with his daddy issues and orbalisks. So yeah, while I don't expect anyone to get on-board with such a convoluted argument, I find it insanely hard to believe that Maul isn't well beyond Bane. [/B]

Well in fairness, you're mixing Canon and Legends. We have no idea how long Bane was studying as a Sith in Canon.

Legends-wise, Maul had, according to you, about 20 years, albeit with better training, resources, etc. than Bane, who had close to 30 years. After that, Maul got cut in half and spent over a decade languishing on Lotho Minor as an insane hermit. So really, Maul had better everything for a full two-thirds of Bane's Sith career, including much greater potential, but for the final third he was just festering away on Lotho Minor with his potential being deeply stunted.

I mean, as I see it, it's more than enough to put Maul up there with Bane, but putting him well beyond Bane? Not sure.

Also, which quotes say that Sidious gave Maul unrestricted access to Sith material?

Well in fairness, you're mixing Canon and Legends. We have no idea how long Bane was studying as a Sith in Canon.

Legends-wise, Maul had, according to you, about 20 years, albeit with better training, resources, etc. than Bane, who had close to 30 years. After that, Maul got cut in half and spent over a decade languishing on Lotho Minor as an insane hermit. So really, Maul had better everything for a full two-thirds of Bane's Sith career, but his equivalent of Bane's final third was just festering away on Lotho Minor.

Maul had better formal training with a better Force aptitude, at least as many hardships of at least equal quality, and more time spent growing. You also left out my points regarding Rebels Maul, so I guess you agree on those points.

I personally think your objections with my post are a little silly, and I'm wondering if you're now at a point of just disagreeing for shits and giggles? Maul's "festering" on Lotho Minor was one of the most profound descents into the Dark Side anyone in Star Wars has ever gone into. There's a reason sources are bursting at the seams telling us the process only made Maul more powerful.

As for the quotes, the ones where Sidious trained Maul "in all Sith ways" or "all forms of Sith arts". Please tell me these are self-explanatory enough for you, Nova. Like I said, I'm already going terminal in the Savage thread. Between you and kbro I'm seriously considering ending my wh0le career.

To address your edit: While his potential was stunted, he was still growing in power, so I hesitate to assume losing his legs set his peak at Bane-level. We're talking about 1000 years of difference here.