Originally posted by ILS
Fantastic point actually. I'll keep my argument limited to Legends Bane.
In other words, a version of what I said which looks upon Maul's (objective) power growth from Lotho Minor far less favourably than it ought to.Maul had better formal training with a better Force aptitude, at least as many hardships of at least equal quality, and more time spent growing. You also left out my points regarding Rebels Maul, so I guess you agree on those points.
I personally think your objections with my post are a little silly, and I'm wondering if you're now at a point of just disagreeing for shits and giggles? Maul's "festering" on Lotho Minor was one of the most profound descents into the Dark Side anyone in Star Wars has ever gone into. There's a reason sources are bursting at the seams telling us the process only made Maul more powerful.
As for the quotes, the ones where Sidious trained Maul "in all Sith ways" or "all forms of Sith arts". Please tell me these are self-explanatory enough for you, Nova. Like I said, I'm already going terminal in the Savage thread. Between you and kbro I'm seriously considering ending my wh0le career.
I left out Rebels Maul because he's Canon. If that was Legends, Maul would be shitting on Bane by Rebels.
No, my point is that Maul was obviously growing much better than Bane for the first twenty years, but despite the fact that he still grew in those last ten years, it probably wouldn't have been much - and I don't know if you still do, but you did once hold that stance yourself. If there's evidence that he grew a lot on Lotho Minor, that would raise his standing for me.
I do think the material presented here is enough to put him above Bane, but not "well ahead", although naturally that depends on how you define it.
And of course Sidious trained Maul in all aspects of Sith arts. I already mentioned that, and that's not what I asked. I asked if he had unrestricted access to everything (in Legends). You can teach someone numerous areas but still keep some stuff in each area from them. I thought you once showed me an actual quote about Sidious allowing Maul unrestricted access to the Sith archives or something?
I had someone from CV contact me via FB about this post.
Before delving into this, I'd first like to start with the opening sentence of the OP, and I hope I remember my sources correctly:
"There's plenty of older Legends sources, Book of Sith from 2013 being most recent, claiming Sidious kept some cards to his chest while training Maul. That Maul had a very specific purpose - to kill Jedi and perform missions in the shadows for Sidious - and to be honest and frank, yes, this was the original 2000s inception of his character."
This is not entirely correct. This was not the original inception of Maul in episode I, The Phantom Menace, but I do acknowledge you specify Legends. I still feel the need to point out that we are introduced to Maul as a "full" Sith Lord and apprentice to Darth Sidious. There was never any indication that he was anything other than that until his novels came out, but even those are contradictory. There are Legends reference books that discuss him as Sidious' apprentice along with at least one that says he was only a lackey (icr verbatim).
1) Sidious did not share all of his secrets with any of his apprentices, not even Vader. The reason why is discussed in the novel, Darth Plagueis. In one of the novels about Vader, Vader says that Sidious hasn't taught him everything yet. (Maybe DL:TRoDV?)
You later said that "we all agree Dooku is a “fully trained Sith Lord” with his Lightning and all" to make a good point. I do not agree that Tyranus was fully trained. Knowing lightning is supposedly what apprentices (they are given the title of Sith Lord upon apprenticeship) learn to do (Jedi v Sith). I know that some can master it better than others, and perhaps a few never were able to use it. Never is it stated that Maul could not use it, and in two old canon sources we know he could. One is TCW magazine, and the other is the first TPM video game, which would not violate the game mechanics stipulation. We don't see him use it, but that means little as we never saw Maul mind read until "Rebels" season 3. Actually, in "Shadow Hunter" he used this ability, but a lot of us missed it.
2) The entire reason for the Banite Sith to exist was to destroy the Jedi, or maybe it's better said that their goal was to destroy the Jedi and to exact their revenge against the Jedi. There are many references to this, and I'm not sure why so many people say that Maul was just Sidious' errand boy. Sidious himself had to perform similar tasks for Plagueis. Vader had to do similar for Sidious, and I'm sure all apprentices throughout Sith history had to do such. It's just what apprentices do for their masters.
Getting onto the issue of whether or not Maul was a true apprentice:
It is stated in MANY old canon novels and reference books, but there are a couple others that contradict this. I began compiling a harmony of the comics and novels to show which ones say what about Maul and how they differ. I stopped working on it because I thought that most people had come to understand that he was. I see I'm wrong so maybe I'll get back to it. I don't have much time, but I'll make quick jump into this discussion by starting with "Darth Plagueis," the typical proof that is given to show that Maul was never intended to be Sidious' apprentice.
In the book, "Darth Plagueis", Sidious told Plagueis that Maul was to be trained in the Sith arts but never to be trained as an apprentice. In the same novel, we learned from Plagueis that "...Sidious had formed an almost filial bond with Maul," which makes me curious why Sidious, of all people - of all Sith - had such a relationship with Maul if he didn't have much planned for him. Did Sidious lie to Plagueis? No one can answer this and one cannot assume so; however I do question if Sidious lied because Sidious also said that he would kill Maul once he had done what he was supposed to do, which never happened. There are other books that describe Sidious' feelings about Maul, and a few quotes are really interesting and, to me, add further proof that Sidious had a lot planned for Maul.
In the novel "Lockdown," Plagueis orders Sidious to kill Maul, and Sidious becomes physically sick: "The word plunged to the pit of Sidious's stomach and lay there like a rock." "Sidious drew in a breath and held it. The muscles of his diaphragm felt uncannily unsprung. Over the past few minutes, the tension that had gathered within the penthouse had left him feeling suffocated, as if the oxygen content within these walls had been slowly but steadily drained." "The word was still there, twisting in his guts like poison.
By the time he reached the turbolifts leading down through the tower to the main lobby, he was breathing normally again, and the shaking within his chest was almost completely gone."
There are more examples, but the above and the "filial" comment made by Plagueis should give some indication that Sidious had a lot planned for Maul. Does that mean that M was S's apprentice? Not really, but it gives weight to the subject when also considering that most Legends and, so far, all Canon tell us that Maul was Sidious apprentice.
I'm curious why people have said that Maul was lied to when he was told he was an apprentice when in other Maul novels we learn from Sidious and even Plagueis that Maul was indeed Sidious' true apprentice. In the preponderance of available media, we are told this, and in a few novels and comics, Sidious and Plagueis think these things to themselves or discuss them outside Maul's presence. One book this happens in is "Lockdown." At the beginning of chapter 43, while Maul is in Cog Hive 7, Plagueis tells Sidious, ""I suppose this means you may congratulate your apprentice," Darth Plagueis observed, "on a job well done.""
The following is a longer excerpt that covers a few points already made, such as Sidious' feelings about Maul (including respect), that destroying the Jedi is the cause of the Sith, and that Maul is S's apprentice. It even touches on Maul's powerful capabilities without using the Force: "As with any mission involving Maul, the situation that Sidious was creating on Cog Hive Seven was not entirely stable. The Sith Lord harbored no delusions about his apprentice's ambition or pride, or how closely those elements were linked to the anger that was constantly sweltering inside his apprentice, fermenting as Maul's power continued to intensify. Locked in unswerving allegiance to their cause, the Zabrak's heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage.
And that rage will serve him well.
Yes. When Sidious reflected back on the years of training that Maul had endured, proving himself repeatedly against the worst that the galaxy had to offer, he felt an unmistakable pride in his apprentice's strength and fortitude. By definition, Cog Hive Seven was an environment that no one survived, yet Maul had already established himself as a dominant presence without relying on the Force. Despite what he'd said to Maul, Sidious felt an increasing respect for what his apprentice continued to achieve. In the fullness of time, such abilities would continue to serve him better than he could possibly imagine."
There is one other book I know of that says something about Maul not being a true apprentice or that Sidious had little use for him other than a tool, and I *think* it was "The Wrath of Darth Maul." I can't remember what exactly was said and can look later. Contradictory to those two books, there are other novels and comics that present a different story.
Anyway, to wrap up this first thought on the OP's opening statement, I don't think that "...Sidious kept some cards to his chest while training Maul. That Maul had a very specific purpose - to kill Jedi and perform missions in the shadows for Sidious..." should be used to prove that Maul was never a true apprentice. I don't think I fully addressed this because I just realized that I focus more on examples of Sidious' intentions toward Maul, but my points 1 and 2 should address that. There is more to say, but I've run out of time.
Before delving into this, I'd first like to start with the opening sentence of the OP, and I hope I remember my sources correctly:For the sake of clarity: I am not saying he was at any point not a fully fledged Sith Lord. He has always been as much. As early as the darkside sourcebook he's described as the violent embodiment of his partnership with Sidious, let alone a non-Sith. What I'm discussing is the expanded interpretation on his character over the years. He was not presented as a potential RoT successor/master manipulator or Force powerhouse in TPM, he was presented as a swords guy.[my post]
This is not entirely correct. This was not the original inception of Maul in episode I, The Phantom Menace, but I do acknowledge you specify Legends. I still feel the need to point out that we are introduced to Maul as a "full" Sith Lord and apprentice to Darth Sidious. There was never any indication that he was anything other than that until his novels came out, but even those are contradictory. There are Legends reference books that discuss him as Sidious' apprentice along with at least one that says he was only a lackey (icr verbatim).
1) Sidious did not share all of his secrets with any of his apprentices, not even Vader. The reason why is discussed in the novel, Darth Plagueis. In one of the novels about Vader, Vader says that Sidious hasn't taught him everything yet. (Maybe DL:TRoDV?)Maybe not every last secret, but enough that he'd be considered worthy of continuing the RoT one day. My sources make it quite clear that in the time Maul did spend with Sidious, Sidious held little back in moulding him into a Sith Lord.
You later said that "we all agree Dooku is a “fully trained Sith Lord” with his Lightning and all" to make a good point. I do not agree that Tyranus was fully trained. Knowing lightning is supposedly what apprentices (they are given the title of Sith Lord upon apprenticeship) learn to do (Jedi v Sith). I know that some can master it better than others, and perhaps a few never were able to use it. Never is it stated that Maul could not use it, and in two old canon sources we know he could. One is TCW magazine, and the other is the first TPM video game, which would not violate the game mechanics stipulation. We don't see him use it, but that means little as we never saw Maul mind read until "Rebels" season 3. Actually, in "Shadow Hunter" he used this ability, but a lot of us missed it.I think here, and in other parts of your post, you've jumped the gun. As I made perfectly clear, I don't think lightning is a prerequisite for being a fully fledged Sith Lord. I was being facetious, and I don't care one way or another if some obscure sources list Maul as having the ability - he doesn't use it, and I don't think that's a detriment to him. The problem with the telepathy comparison is that Maul hasn't had an excess of times he's needed to use that ability, but he's always had plenty of opportunity to use lightning in battle.
Does that sound agreeable?
2) The entire reason for the Banite Sith to exist was to destroy the Jedi, or maybe it's better said that their goal was to destroy the Jedi and to exact their revenge against the Jedi. There are many references to this, and I'm not sure why so many people say that Maul was just Sidious' errand boy. Sidious himself had to perform similar tasks for Plagueis. Vader had to do similar for Sidious, and I'm sure all apprentices throughout Sith history had to do such. It's just what apprentices do for their masters.I'm assuming this isn't an argument, because I agree, and said exactly this in my OP: the Sith's primary directive is to kill Jedi, and that is what Maul was bred to do.
Getting onto the issue of whether or not Maul was a true apprentice:Again, if this is an argument, you're preaching to the choir. This is i_like_swords from Comic Vine, btw. You know my views on Maul.It is stated in MANY old canon novels and reference books, but there are a couple others that contradict this. I began compiling a harmony of the comics and novels to show which ones say what about Maul and how they differ. I stopped working on it because I thought that most people had come to understand that he was. I see I'm wrong so maybe I'll get back to it. I don't have much time, but I'll make quick jump into this discussion by starting with "Darth Plagueis," the typical proof that is given to show that Maul was never intended to be Sidious' apprentice.
In the book, "Darth Plagueis", Sidious told Plagueis that Maul was to be trained in the Sith arts but never to be trained as an apprentice. In the same novel, we learned from Plagueis that "...Sidious had formed an almost filial bond with Maul," which makes me curious why Sidious, of all people - of all Sith - had such a relationship with Maul if he didn't have much planned for him. Did Sidious lie to Plagueis? No one can answer this and one cannot assume so; however I do question if Sidious lied because Sidious also said that he would kill Maul once he had done what he was supposed to do, which never happened. There are other books that describe Sidious' feelings about Maul, and a few quotes are really interesting and, to me, add further proof that Sidious had a lot planned for Maul.Sidious bragged about how him and Maul were going to keep the show running while he choked Plagueis to death. I think that settles this particular issue for good, if Darth Plagueis is your source of preference.
In the novel "Lockdown," Plagueis orders Sidious to kill Maul, and Sidious becomes physically sick: "The word plunged to the pit of Sidious's stomach and lay there like a rock." "Sidious drew in a breath and held it. The muscles of his diaphragm felt uncannily unsprung. Over the past few minutes, the tension that had gathered within the penthouse had left him feeling suffocated, as if the oxygen content within these walls had been slowly but steadily drained." "The word was still there, twisting in his guts like poison.That's awesome if it's in the right context. I'll need to give Lockdown another read. Also, what did you think of Maul ripping off the varactyl's skull? Bearing in mind he was restricting every use of the Force at Sidious' order, everything from sense to telekinesis.By the time he reached the turbolifts leading down through the tower to the main lobby, he was breathing normally again, and the shaking within his chest was almost completely gone."
The following is a longer excerpt that covers a few points already made, such as Sidious' feelings about Maul (including respect), that destroying the Jedi is the cause of the Sith, and that Maul is S's apprentice. It even touches on Maul's powerful capabilities without using the Force: "As with any mission involving Maul, the situation that Sidious was creating on Cog Hive Seven was not entirely stable. The Sith Lord harbored no delusions about his apprentice's ambition or pride, or how closely those elements were linked to the anger that was constantly sweltering inside his apprentice, fermenting as Maul's power continued to intensify. Locked in unswerving allegiance to their cause, the Zabrak's heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage.Pretty condemning evidence for anyone claiming Maul isn't important to Sidious, yeah. That part of Lockdown seemed even a little bit inspired by Stover's prose from RotS, in reference to "the Zabrak's heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage."And that rage will serve him well.
Yes. When Sidious reflected back on the years of training that Maul had endured, proving himself repeatedly against the worst that the galaxy had to offer, he felt an unmistakable pride in his apprentice's strength and fortitude. By definition, Cog Hive Seven was an environment that no one survived, yet Maul had already established himself as a dominant presence without relying on the Force. Despite what he'd said to Maul, Sidious felt an increasing respect for what his apprentice continued to achieve. In the fullness of time, such abilities would continue to serve him better than he could possibly imagine."
Anyway, to wrap up this first thought on the OP's opening statement, I don't think that "...Sidious kept some cards to his chest while training Maul. That Maul had a very specific purpose - to kill Jedi and perform missions in the shadows for Sidious..." should be used to prove that Maul was never a true apprentice. I don't think I fully addressed this because I just realized that I focus more on examples of Sidious' intentions toward Maul, but my points 1 and 2 should address that. There is more to say, but I've run out of time.Please, please, for the sake of your own sanity, stop typing a counter-argument and read the entire post.
Like I said, things I agree with:
-Maul was always a fully fledged Sith
-Maul was always important to Sidious, albeit dispensable
-Maul was indeed hidden from Plagueis
I'm making the argument that if Maul, despite being a Sith Lord, only fulfilled warrior-assassin and stealth duties for Sidious during the 2000s, nowadays in the modern canon, Maul's purpose and development has been expanded to such a degree that Filoni suggests Sidious "trained Maul in his own likeness".
Originally posted by AzrongerWell there's apparently one or two sources saying he has it, but I distinctly recall in one novel Maul saying "and one day Sidious will teach me to produce electricity from my finger tips" while he lamented over why he's kept out of a lot of the picture.
Maul knows Force lightning, although he doesn't use it for some reason.
Like I said, this new take TCW introduced to Maul is very much overriding the old interpretation, but if people try and ignore that the old interpretation ever existed, they're just being ignorant.
He really wasn't.
If you look at him in comparison to Dooku or Vader, he has no notable showings of barrier, far inferior demonstrations of telekinesis, and has nowhere near the knowledge of either. Of course Maultards will be "OMG HE CAN RAGDOLL Kenobi" but Ventress and Savage have also effected him. He's the runt of Sidious's trained Sith, and would barely be a grunt in the SWTOR Sith empire.
My apologies ILS. I did not have much time yesterday, nor do I today, but I want to let you know I was not arguing with you. You made your opening statement, which triggered a deluge of Maul hate memories. You had typed those words, and then I answered them as though I would answer anyone else. Please accept my sincerest apologies if I came across as arguing with you.
I again dont' have time to give a decent reply so I will not attempt it until later this evening or this weekend. One thing I'd like to discuss is your sources. Perhaps we can compare notes?