Kratos (God of War) vs Link (Legend of Zelda)

Originally posted by dika123
weird.... moon and stars on the sky are round. But the earth is flat.

So the GoW earth' size is still questionable. But How big GoW earth is, if you compare it to real life earth ?

Considering the Pegasus flew from the Island of Rhodes to Mount Etna in maybe 5 minutes, yet took 6 days to fly from Mount Etna to the Island of Creation (which is near the edge of the world), it must be pretty massive.

There's also a gigantic desert to the east of Athens, so big that Cronos can wander in it for a long time (consider that 1 mile to an average sized human would be equivalent to over 280 miles to a 500 meter tall person). The desert is also filled with sand dunes as big if not bigger than Cronos.

The area surrounding Olympus was also stated to be "100x bigger than a national park".

So, apparently there is a ton of space in the GoW world.

"Termina

When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina. "

-Zelda.com

https://web.archive.org/web/20051118053336/http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

The goddesses > the primordials.

The Triforce is also literally what holds reality together. ALBW shows an alternate reality without it and it's falling apart and fading away to nothing. When the OoT cinematic says that the Triforce is the basis of the providence of their world it's being literal.

Triforce > hope.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
"Termina

When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina. "

-Zelda.com

https://web.archive.org/web/20051118053336/http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

The goddesses > the primordials.

The Triforce is also literally what holds reality together. ALBW shows an alternate reality without it and it's falling apart and fading away to nothing. When the OoT cinematic says that the Triforce is the basis of the providence of their world it's being literal.

Triforce > hope.

is created millions of alternate worlds count as a multiverse ?? or what ?

because if the millions of worlds are same size like termina land and then

Primordials > goddess

in God of War series every myth are exist, one myth should contain dimensions or different cosmology like norse has 9 world that connected each other. Greek myth has which the size is immeasurable.

The goddesses outperformed the primordials by breathing too hard. By accident.

Each of those millions of worlds is its own layered reality with a sacred realm and at least something representing our local cosmology.

Creating what is at best millions of planets or maybe mini-solar systems is not putting them on the Primordials level at all. It was not described as millions of universes, just worlds. And other than having what looks like a sun in the sky, nothing about them suggests they have an actual cosmology like our own, seeing as the moon in MM is like mountain sized at best. Zelda's world is much further removed from ours than GoW's is.

Also, the Goddesses are outright shown forming Hyrule manually, and the Hyrule Historia, which certainly outranks whatever that website says, repeats exactly what was shown in the OoT cutscene.

As per your link, they didn't intend to create millions of worlds anyway. It was a quirk in reality they weren't aware of. Without further clarification, that's not a power showing so much as its an accident that distributed their power further than it should have gone.

Regardless, there's two different statements that would point to the God of War universe being both immeasurable and literally infinite.

And all of the cosmos came from Uranus' body, he contained it within himself.

Also, one of the titans forged a spear that had the strength to contain the weight of the entire cosmos. And its nowhere near the Blade of Olympus, seeing as it one shot all of them.

Creating what is at best millions of planets or maybe mini-solar systems is not putting them on the Primordials level at all. It was not described as millions of universes, just worlds. And other than having what looks like a sun in the sky, nothing about them suggests they have an actual cosmology like our own,

seeing as the moon in MM is like mountain sized at best.

As per your link, they didn't intend to create millions of worlds anyway. It was a quirk in reality they weren't aware of. Without further clarification, that's not a power showing so much as its an accident that distributed their power further than it should have gone.

This was casual for them. 👆 They breathed too hard.

Regardless, there's two different statements that would point to the God of War universe being both immeasurable and literally infinite.

And all of the cosmos came from Uranus' body, he contained it within himself.

Also, one of the titans forged a spear that had the strength to contain the weight of the entire cosmos. And its nowhere near the Blade of Olympus, seeing as it one shot all of them.

Triforce >

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
[B]Compared to a flat world.[b]

No, just a flat planet earth, which has all the same continents and oceans as the real one, and which may have changed now due to the death of the greek gods.

And that flat world is still surrounded by actual nebulas and countless galaxies.

Also, do you know of an ancient Greek invention called the antikythera mechanism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

It was used for astronomy purposes back in the BCs.

That exact same mechanism, with the same name, same look and same stated purpose is an item that Kratos can find in Ascension. So yeah, GoW's cosmology besides Earth is oerall like our own, pretty provably.

Zelda's is not by any means. It has a moon with a face.

Games are not to scale.

Nope.

The Moon is canonically meant to be that size from day one. After-all it was held up by a few giants that were small enough to fit in an open plain, and its size was shown explicitly side by side against a castle just before it touches down.. And there were advertisements and even commercials for Majora's Mask which showed the corrupted moon falling towards a modern city and it still looks to be the same size as in the game.

They could have zoomed out to show an entire planet and the moon next to it, crashing down, but they showed the moon against a castle for scale.

They had the opportunity to make it 'moon sized' in an HD game with Hyrule Warriors but the corrupted moon was shown to be the same size. Small enough for a dinosaur sized dragon to be seen against its curvature. (No need to point out it was a fake version of the corrupted moon made by fairies, i know, the size was still genuine though).

Anyway, Termina, which is stated to be similar but different to Hyrule, was going to be completely destroyed by a moon the size of a small mountain.

That's a bad showing for these millions of worlds when one of its most prominent ones can be taken out like that.

I mean, what about all the other unknown ones? They might be minuscule in size. Maybe no more than the size of a small forest or a large castle or a country or something. At best they are millions of pocket dimensions of indeterminate average size. It's a huge stretch to think they are universe sized.

At best its unquantifiable, but definitely well beyond planetary level which was my initial assessment, and maybe even multi-star (seeing as 1 million earths can fit within the sun).

You're trying to make this less impressive by citing that it was an accident. That's not how that works.

This was casual for them. 👆 They breathed too hard.

An accident in that their power wasn't supposed to work that way. They didn't even seem to know about the cracks in reality since they didn't anticipate the results to happen. Not provably a pure power feat, we have no way of knowing how it interacted with their creation energies. It could have taken what was meant for one world and repeated it unwittingly.

And by breathe, I'm sure you meant "with her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth", which is what was said of Din, one-third of these Goddesses. Not only was that said in OoT, it was also outright shown in OoT's cutscene. And it was later re-stated in the Hyrule Historia, which trumps that website you linked seeing as the latest copyright on that site is from 2005. Making it very outdated in comparison.

And several claiming the Triforce is literally omnipotent.

Literal statement of omnipotence? Or just 'All-powerful'?

Eitherway, omnipotence is relative to each verse. Feats matter.

It is omnipotent in verse where it holds reality together for millions of 'worlds' of indeterminate size. It was also created by three goddess that had to manually create the main world with their bare hands and their powers, and then by happenstance had otherworlds created as a side effect through a quirk of reality they did not even anticipate.

Pretty much like a scientist creating something through accident/happenstance.

Anyway, a cosmos that is literally infinite in size contained within the body of a being and created indirectly through fighting other beings of equal power > Accidentally creating millions of worlds/pocket dimensions of unknown size from a quirk in reality that makes it even more unquantifiable. And again, one of the most prominent of those worlds is small enough to be destroyed by a mountain sized moon.

Neat.

Triforce >

Not by feats.

And infinite universe > millions of worlds.

No, just a flat planet earth

Also, do you know of an ancient Greek invention called the antikythera mechanism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Zelda's is not by any means. It has a moon with a face.

The Moon is canonically meant to be that size from day one.

And there were advertisements and even commercials for Majora's Mask which showed the corrupted moon falling towards a modern city and it still looks to be the same size as in the game.

The moon is never shown to scale against anything in that commercial, and the MM commercials framed the moon falling as properly apocalyptic.

Anyway, Termina, which is stated to be similar but different to Hyrule, was going to be completely destroyed by a moon the size of a small mountain.

An accident in that their power wasn't supposed to work that way. They didn't even seem to know about the cracks in reality since they didn't anticipate the results to happen. Not provably a pure power feat, we have no way of knowing how it interacted with their creation energies. It could have taken what was meant for one world and repeated it unwittingly.

"As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process."

Definitely not a power feat, right? The quote straight up attributes it to their breath, their potent breath.

And by breathe, I'm sure you meant "with her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth", which is what was said of Din, one-third of these Goddesses. Not only was that said in OoT, it was also outright shown in OoT's cutscene.

Literal statement of omnipotence? Or just 'All-powerful'?

It is omnipotent in verse where it holds reality together for millions of 'worlds' of indeterminate size. It was also created by three goddess that had to manually create the main world with their bare hands and their powers, and then by happenstance had otherworlds created as a side effect through a quirk of reality they did not even anticipate.

Pretty much like a scientist creating something through accident/happenstance.

It's more like three goddesses setting out to creating one world, and then accidentally making more because they breathed too hard.

Which is better than some gods making one world on purpose.

Anyway, a cosmos that is literally infinite in size contained within

Goddesses > Primordials.
Triforce > "Hope".

Interestingly enough the first time the goddesses appeared was in the manual for aLttP.

Interesting how they are represented here. This seems very similar to how they are described as behaving on "that website" known as Zelda.com.

the only different is the earth is flat since they using Greek myth as a reference to the game, but the cosmology is similar to us with based on perspective of Greek Myth as a story of the game. They just combined and modified Greek myth cosmology with modern cosmology but not removing aspect of Greek myth so it would make more sense and not contradict.

like you said before "at least something representing our local cosmology."

Earth in GoW series is much larger with unknown size compared to our earth. GoW earth also contain another dimension. For the example like on GoW ascension. And GoW series also has Underworld which the size are immeasurable.

Hades seem also can reshaping the Underworld since The Landscape between GoW 1 and GoW 3 are completely different. the Underworld also contain dark clouds. The side effect of great war also reshaping entire continents. So it would make sense why GoW earth is Flat but other planet is not. because the gods influence to the nature.

and last but not least GoW series has multiple Myth exist simultaneously according to Matt Sophos. Which is impressive because it mean Another myth already exist since Primordials War not after event of God of War 3

and again just because each world has different layer of reality, i don't see how the Goddess accidentally created millions of worlds by breathing is impressive compared to Ceto one of the Primordials who make a Big bang with a single punch to Uranus. Considering the only world we know is Termina and sacred realm which the size is small compared to the earth.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how planets work and immediately makes GoW's cosmology entirely unlike our own.

Hades seem also can reshaping the Underworld since The Landscape between GoW 1 and GoW 3 are completely different. the Underworld also contain dark clouds. The side effect of great war also reshaping entire continents. So it would make sense why GoW earth is Flat but other planet is not. because the gods influence to the nature.

and last but not least GoW series has multiple Myth exist simultaneously according to Matt Sophos. Which is impressive because it mean Another myth already exist since Primordials War not after event of God of War 3

and again just because each world has different layer of reality, i don't see how the Goddess accidentally created millions of worlds by breathing is impressive compared to Ceto one of the Primordials who make a Big bang with a single punch to Uranus. Considering the only world we know is Termina and sacred realm which the size is small compared to the earth.

Explain why you feel what the goddesses created is smaller than Earth?

Hyrule alone spans two continents, touches the Northern icecap, and reaches far enough South to have tropical forests and deserts below them. It also neighbours Labrynna and Holodrum. This is not even mentioning the alternate realities layered over it such as the Sacred Realm, the Twilight Realm, etc.

Termina is a large enough place to span multiple climates, and we don't know what's on its borders. We do know that the moon is round, and was high enough to take more than three days to be pulled down to Termina Earth.

It would have been visible from its former orbit, and as it falls it begins pulling things upward with its gravity, it's not "mountain sized".

Lorule is nearly identical to Hyrule, and at least has its own sacred realm.

So with that logic i want to ask you is LoZ's cosmology is same like our cosmology ?? Because our Cosmology is created by Big Bang not with three goddess.

All of these places have a properly operating sun and moon, Termina and Hyrule both have night skies filled with stars and constellations. Hyrule has actual meteor showers. There are no flat earths or other physical anomalies to make it instantly different than ours.

Also what created something does not equate to how something is. GoW Earth was made by gods also, remember?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

You'll note that almost without exception IRL myths tend to have a smaller scale than our modern understanding of the universe.

yes modern human has better understanding of the universe. But does not rule out the possibility the incomprehension of them about universe, make them to exaggerate our universe with some old story fantasy. furthermore i am not talking about Real life Myth, i am just giving proof if GoW series has Multiverse with unknown size. Perhaps new GoW on PS4 will tell us more.

By the Way i accept your statement. We'll see if your statement is accepted by most of OBD-ers ....

and also i think we should focus on Link vs Kratos Rather than Primordials vs Goddess.

So about Link, How powerful he is ? (Without triforce).
Because Kratos > Zeus > Cronos > uranus (Primordials)

i don't think link > Goddess

Link>demise> a goddess...

By the Way i accept your statement.

and also i think we should focus on Link vs Kratos Rather than Primordials vs Goddess.

As per the OP Link has the Triforce here, though, and given how absurdly powerful it is, my belief is that alone is necessary to give him the win. He can turn Kratos into a burrito or something, if he so wishes.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Link>demise> a goddess...

Alrighty, but link without any triforce bits was still able to take on ganon. Ganon should be roughly equal to demise right?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Alrighty, but link without any triforce bits was still able to take on ganon. Ganon should be roughly equal to demise right?

Ganon with the ToP has at least one planetary feat in ALBW's backstory, Demise is apocalyptic too. HH says he has the power to "Destroy the world", which probably only means destroy the people on it, but given he took on Hylia while wounded it's not unlikely he's got planet wide reach with his power, either.

So I think I know your stance, but wouldn't majora dropping a moon technically put him above demise?

Planets > Moons

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is not how planets work and immediately makes GoW's cosmology entirely unlike our own.

Planet. Specifically Earth. Not Planets. The moon is big enough to classify as a planet and by all accounts the one GoW is the same as ours, it waxes, it wanes, it has many different looking craters etc. Meaning its round.
The primordials created an entire universe. And that universe is filled with other galaxies. Both Word of God confirmed.
That entire universe is also infinite in size going by 3 different statements.
So Earth in GoW represents an infinitesimally small part of the cosmos.
Anyway, you built a nice strawman there.
I specifically said GoW's cosmology far more represents ours then Zelda's does, and that was in response to your initial claim that Zelda's cosmology resembles ours. And you've not rebutted that particular claim. I never said GoW's cosmology is exactly equivalent to ours, obviously that's not the case. 🙂
All GoW does is have a flat earth, and that may have actually changed after the Greek God end. Like Dika said, it has an old-world Greek take on the Earth with a modern view of the universe around it. Nothing complicated.

Zelda's sins against representing our cosmology are far bigger, I'll go over that in a bit.

Neat. Saw it in a documentary once.

Thanks. Anyway, I take it to mean its a concession on the point that GoW's world has references to actual persons, places or things that exist or have existed? Whereas Zelda's does not?

GoW even credits the invention of the device to Archimedes.

At least my celestial bodies are round. 131

So are the stars and moon in GoW.

And at least GoW has shown us deep space before. With stars and a collection of nebullae. And again, the verse is WoG confirmed to be filled with other galaxies.

Let's start with Zelda's issues, which are much more numerous.

1. Firstly, it's not even Earth. The world is collectively called Hyrule at times too. (citation pg 77 of the Historia). It does not even remotely represent Earth in Geography. GoW Earth might be a flat land, but at least it IS Earth. This particular problem for Zelda isn't all that bad by itself but...it piles on from there, especially when you are comparing it in cosmological similarity to Earth against something that actually *is* Earth.

2. The world of Hyrule is OLDER than its supposed Sun. This is a massive flaw:
YouTube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XSWZc1JBcs
1:00-1:11.

Din already completely formed the world and its topography, and then Nayru came and formed the atmosphere and the sun appeared along with the sky in the air. This is very backward.

3. Unlike GoW, we've never seen deep space in zelda. The Goddesses created the heavens before they created hyrule, and you'd think by common language that 'heavens' means Space. But it apparently doesn't. They came from their home in the heavens to where hyrule was supposed to be, and there were no stars in this area at all. It didn't even look remotely like space at all. They came to some dark cloudy area that was raining (?!), and then that dark cloudy, rainy area became hyrule. The sun shined and those dark clouds and rain eventually dispersed.

4. Forget deep space, we've never even seen Hyrule from nearby orbit in any of the games. Why would they shy away from this, even though they've had situations where it would be appropriate? We've had a cutscene of the creation story, and we've had a story of the moon falling. Yet we don't see Hyrule from orbit as an actual planet, ever. Why is that? If its supposed to be a planet, then no mystique is ruined anyway just to show a cropped view of the planet from low-orbit. Even the GoW Earth has been shown from orbit before, such as in the Chains of Olympus commercial, from space at least it looks like a normal planet, even if its not once you are actually in it.

5. The Moon. Has. A. Face. Not only that, the moon's inside has a field of grass and a tree in it. And structures for a dungeon, and minions. It's mostly hollow. What's more, this moon literally sheds tears made of blue rocks. You can't make this up. That and there's various references in the series of the Sun having a face too, normally you'd think its just a stylized mural, but the actual moon has a face so it may be literal.

Citation needed.

*Cites official visual material.*

*Gets asked for citation after already citing*

So, are we ignoring every official showing that shows the moon as less than moon sized now? (which is all of them).

The corrupted moon shows up in like 3 different games (5 if you the count the 3DS remake of MM and the one that was on Gamecube) official artwork, an official manga and the Japanese Commercial and it is small every time.

There are multiple views of the moon in its main game, and not a single view of it approaches moon sized. Not only do they show it against the nearby castle landscape, they show it against actual characters too; the giants of Termina.

Are you going to tell me those are actually 4 continent sized giants too?
Please don't. After all they sleep hidden somewhere in the 4 regions of the land, we've seen their feet next to tree stumps for scale, there's official artwork of skull skid standing close by them with rocky hills next to them for scale, and he was originally their friend to begin with, (kinda hard to be friends with things that are continent sized right?).
What's more, the The Moon's size is even stated in relation to the town.
Pg. 112 of the Hyrule Historia:
"The day of destiny had arrived. The Four Giants stretched out their arms and held up the moon, stopping it from plunging into the town."
Lmao... if it was moon sized, it wouldn't be talked about as plunging into a town, it would be talked about as plunging into a continent.
Come to think of it, you ask me for citations, but where's your citation that the moon was actually meant to be the size of our moon? Doesn't exist, visually, or textually.

The moon is never shown to scale against anything in that commercial, and the MM commercials framed the moon falling as properly apocalyptic.

Completely false. As you can see a cloud deforming around the moon's mouth, and you even see clouds *behind* the moon that are still moving in the video I posted before.
Meaning its in the atmosphere and its take up very little space in the sky.
And yeah, I remember the Nintendo of American commercials showing a doomsday scenario of our own moon hypothetically falling on us in 72 hours and us just waiting. That would be apocalyptic, obviously.
If you take those commercials as making the analogy that proportionately Earth is to Moon as Termina is to Corrupted Moon, then all that does is reaffirm that Termina is a tiny world since its moon is canonically tiny in every showing, ever.

This is counter to your point, though, and unless you think the moon was meant to fall at measures of centimeters per second the game continues to not be to scale.

I don't know what importance the moon's specific fall speed has on anything, nor do I know where you pulled that figure from.
The moon WAS absolutely falling at horrendously slow speeds relative to its size though. It took a full 3 days to hit the ground even though its diameter is not that much greater than the castle town that it was falling directly towards, meaning it was never that far up in the sky in the first place since we can still see it clearly in the sky before it starts falling.
Even when its almost touched down with the castle, maybe 1000 feet above the ground, it looks like its barely moving and looks like it would take it a few whole minutes just for it fall that mere 1000 feet. Not to mention, we see a rocky tear drop fall from the moon's eye while it was still at day 1 height, and that tear drop plummeted to the ground in seconds. So yeah, absolutely the moon is falling slow as hell.
Anyway,
They had the opportunity to easily show the size of the moon being closer to moon size as opposed to mountain sized. They could have done something like this:
but again, they instead chose to do this:

And it would have been far less work to show a zoomed out view of the moon hitting the world. They would have only needed a flat stretched out sprite for space/stars, and two low polygon spheres colliding. But they didn't. They went through the trouble of having the moon's face squishing up against a clock tower in an open plain with mountains and trees, so they showed far more detail than they actually had to if that moon was actually 'moon sized'.

Even in the Gamecube or 3DS versions where they had more power to play with in order to do a planetary collision scene justice, they still did not opt to make a zoomed out showing of the moon hitting the world and actually looking like a moon. Instead we got a cleaned up, retextured showing of a demonstratively tiny, small mountain sized moon taking out the entire world of termina.

As it says in a link from the *current* Zelda.com, Termina is just a parallel alternate Hyrule, so Hyrule would have gotten taken out as well.