Kratos (God of War) vs Link (Legend of Zelda)

"As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process."

Definitely not a power feat, right? The quote straight up attributes it to their breath, their potent breath.

If they breathed and created all those millions of worlds in the same continuum/dimension/space then yeah, it would have been a power feat.
The only power feat is creating Hyrule, and that's all they intended to created. Those other areas got created on accident because there were leaks in reality that caused their creation energies, or whatever you want to call it, to be taken to other points of space. It would be like fumes in a building going to different rooms because of ventilation.
And then, their creation energies basically got xerox'd and re-arranged at each of these different points of space. That's why Lorule and Termina are so similar to Hyrule, they even have people that look near identical across them.

But the thing is, they didn't breathe anything into existence. At all. It's a faulty, single source that says that. More on that in a bit.

1. No it wasn't. That cutscene shows moving rocks and fire.
2. That cutscene is us being told a story.
3. And no, I mean breathe. As per the quote.

And those moving rocks and fire are juxtaposed with the text telling us that they are being put together by Din and shaped by her strong flaming arms. We even see a first person view of flight across the land, that would be her doing her work.
And lol, you are being awfully flippant and dismissive of the primary source of canon for the series, the games themselves. Aren't you supposed to be a Zelda canon warrior? Why are you denigrating your series?
Afterall, your chosen version of creation, is from an old, completely abolished version of Zelda.com, with an ecyclopedia that no longer even exists. That was the only source where that 'breathing and millions of worlds' thing came from. It does not orginate from anywhere else nor is it repeated anywhere else in canon later. Go ahead, try to go to http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/ now and see where it leads you. It doesn't even exist.
That version of Zelda.com was a Nintendo of America site, it was not created by NoJ and had nothing directly to do with Miyamoto or Aonuma. It's a second hand source at best with NoA theories. They've had flat out incorrect information before that's been purged, like a one Link timeline they used to have on there, and made up shit about Zoras and Zolas being distinct things as opposed to just a spelling difference due to Japanese/English conversions, and some shit about Ganondorf being the only male Gerudo and only because he was 'allowed' in, as opposed to when the games tell you that a male is born every 100 years in the Gerudo clan. It's not particularly credible, and I'm not the only person to say that, its been said by others for years now.
The current version of Zelda.com is basically a product page for each of the games now. They could have kept the encyclopedia somewhere to the side, but they completely shit-canned it, just like they did with that timeline that used to be on it.

On the other hand, several sources including primary sources have repeated the exact same thing we are told from the N64 Ocarina of time:

1. It was said/shown in the original N64 OoT
2. It was said/shown in the Gamecube port.
3. It was said/shown in the 3DS remake.

4. It is outright repeated in the OoT manual. Verbatim:

5. The *CURRENT* Zelda.com also repeats the above verbatim:
http://www.zelda.com/ocarina3d/#/story
"Before life began, before the world had form, three
golden goddesses descended upon the chaotic land of Hyrule. They
were Din, the goddess of power, Nayru, the goddess of wisdom
and Farore, the goddess of courage. Din, with
her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land to
create the earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth
to give the spirit of law to
the world. Farore's rich soul created all life forms who
would uphold the law."

6. Here's another piece from the *CURRENT* Zelda.com. That encyclopedia got dumped got replaced by this much more brief Online guide: http://www.zelda.com/online-guide/
And likewise it says:

Oh look, it repeats OoT's creation story again.

7. And finally, Pg. 70 of the Hyrule Historia says:
"This world was created by the three goddesses during a time of chaos. Din, the goddes of power, created the land. Nayru, the goddess of wisdom, created order. Farore, the goddess of courage, created the diverse inhabitants."

There you go. Several sources corroborating with Original OoT's creation story, including more up to date versions of the website.
On the other hand there are absolutely no other sources corroborating your deleted encyclopedia's creation claim. Absolutely none. The old website including its whole encyclopedia section was a Nintendo of America interpretation that was scrubbed, and that creation interpretation along with it.

Which is good because it completely contradicted the rest of the canon.
There is not a single extra source out there that mentions 'millions of worlds' or that they were 'breathed' into creation. To claim it is true over all the other sources that show a contradicting and unified creation story would be extreme dishonesty.

Literal use of the word omnipotent.

It's more like three goddesses setting out to creating one world, and then accidentally making more because they breathed too hard.
Which is better than some gods making one world on purpose.

You have it backwards. The only ones specifically setting out to make anything were the Goddesses.

The Primordials were not trying to create. They were basically the personification of the big bang (which spawned them). They were simply trying to kill each other and an entire universe, one that is filled with many galaxies, was born as a side effect of their fighting. All of the above is WoG confirmed.

And other Lore/WoG statements show that this universe is infinite in size. Earth wasn't even a focus, it just happened.

The Goddesses on the other hand set out from their ambiguous Heaven to specifically hand-craft a world, literally. And a quirk in reality made parallel versions of their main creation, and that is something they weren't even anticipating to happen.
Unfortunately we can't even assume the world they created is part of an honest to goodness full sized universe filled with other galaxies. You mentioned that creation stories are often smaller than reality and that applies to Hyrule too: Hyrule's myth seems very reminiscent of the intelligent design of Biblical creation; where the Earth is the most prominent body in the sky with the sun and moon both equally small and subservient to it and the stars are just a blanket of light speckled darkness. Afterall, once more, we literally see that the world of Hyrule is OLDER than its own sun as it was formed before it, so its safe to say Hyrule was the most important thing to the Goddesses and their creation plans centered around just the world's necessities.

If you can find some WoG or lore statement that says the World of Zelda is an honest to goodness universe filled with galaxies, and that millions of other honest to goodness universes were created too then I would be happy to concede superiority for the Goddesses. I'd love to have an opportunity to wank LoZ to such levels, I really would.

But until then, all the Goddesses did was make Hyrule by splitting up the task, and parrallel versions of it like Termina and Lorule were created by unknown means as well. And as of now they aren't even actual universes, just mini-solar systems where the world is the most important thing in the sky.

They didn't even make millions of parallel worlds because that claim only came from a single source; An old, discreditable source written up by non-primary sources (Nintendo of America) and replaced by a much more simple online glossary. Since that 'millions of worlds through breathing' thing only came from one deleted source and was never repeated anywhere else at all (even the Hyrule Historia never says anything about millions of parallel worlds), that means is bunk and untrue.

So yeah, the Goddesses made a handful of worlds at best. Afterall the games never made Termina or Lorule seem like a dime a million worlds, they made them seem like special cases.

Infinite in size.
Contained within.
Choose one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BiggerOnTheInside
Or hell, remember this guy? Here he is in his own pocket dimension holding stomach

Uranus is a Primordial humanoid, with a body shape/silhouette formed by bespeckled star stuff/constellations/celestial looking shit, whom contains an infinite cosmos within him.
Very reminiscent of a buff Spartan looking version of this guy.

Goddesses > Primordials.
Triforce > "Hope". [/B]

Interestingly enough the first time the goddesses appeared was in the manual for aLttP.

Interesting how they are represented here. This seems very similar to how they are described as behaving on "that website" known as Zelda.com.

That's 4 posts from me so:

TL;DR: The Goddesses never 'breathed life into millions of worlds', AT ALL. Only a single questionable source said that and since then its been completely wiped from any mention on the website and replaced by contradicting information.

On the other hand, several sources (including the now updated website) corroborate to show that the Goddesses created a single world specifically using a combination of their strength and their powers, (not by mere breathing) and split the task up. And a handful of other parallel worlds to their main creation came about somehow too.

http://gematsu.com/2017/04/legend-zelda-breath-wild-open-air-concept-new-standard-producer-says

Where is the story of Breath of the Wild positioned in the history of Hyrule?

Fujibayashi: “Shouldn’t that… be left to your imagination?”

Producer Eiji Aonuma: “The history of Hyrule changes over time. As a matter of fact, there have been several times so far that once determined history has changed. Even the details in history textbooks are gradually changing. So this time, the situation is as if I found new ancient documents. (Laughs.)”

OK......

I never said GoW's cosmology is exactly equivalent to ours, obviously that's not the case.

Zelda's sins against representing our cosmology are far bigger, I'll go over that in a bit.

This is where I disagree.

1. Firstly, it's not even Earth. The world is collectively called Hyrule at times too. (citation pg 77 of the Historia).

2. The world of Hyrule is OLDER than its supposed Sun. This is a massive flaw:

The Goddesses created the heavens before they created hyrule, and you'd think by common language that 'heavens' means Space. But it apparently doesn't. They came from their home in the heavens to where hyrule was supposed to be, and there were no stars in this area at all. It didn't even look remotely like space at all. They came to some dark cloudy area that was raining (?!), and then that dark cloudy, rainy area became hyrule. The sun shined and those dark clouds and rain eventually dispersed.

My dude, this all literally happened before time even began. The heavens are never mentioned, either, so I don't know what you're even talking about. This is before life, spirits, or time. There not being stars yet doesn't mean literally anything. This could just be time itself being created and light travelling to where the camera is situated, for all we know, lol.

Order things were created in doesn't matter.

. The Moon. Has. A. Face.

*Cites official visual material.*

*Gets asked for citation after already citing*

Two of those show no scale, and none of them are canon.

The only ones that are canon are screenshots from the game, which is not to scale. Unless you think Termina has a population of 20 people.

And it would have been far less work to show a zoomed out view of the moon hitting the world. They would have only needed a flat stretched out sprite for space/stars, and two low polygon spheres colliding. But they didn't. They went through the trouble of having the moon's face squishing up against a clock tower in an open plain with mountains and trees, so they showed far more detail than they actually had to if that moon was actually 'moon sized'.

If they breathed and created all those millions of worlds in the same continuum/dimension/space then yeah, it would have been a power feat.

And those moving rocks and fire are juxtaposed with the text telling us that they are being put together by Din and shaped by her strong flaming arms. We even see a first person view of flight across the land, that would be her doing her work.

You're also kind of obfuscating the point. The three goddesses created different aspects of reality, woo. How exactly they did so is unimportant, what is important is the scale of this creation.

What they did was casual and accidental.

There you go. Several sources corroborating with Original OoT's creation story, including more up to date versions of the website.

Which is good because it completely contradicted the rest of the canon.
There is not a single extra source out there that mentions 'millions of worlds' or that they were 'breathed' into creation. To claim it is true over all the other sources that show a contradicting and unified creation story would be extreme dishonesty.

The Goddesses on the other hand set out from their ambiguous Heaven to specifically hand-craft a world, literally. And a quirk in reality made parallel versions of their main creation, and that is something they weren't even anticipating to happen.

That's lovely. A mural drawn by some mortal that wasn't there doesn't know what the golden goddesses actually look like.

Going to focus on this one more than the others because this is straight up misinformation. The image is meta material from the manual. It wasn't created by anyone in universe, and it accompanies an origin story very similar to OoT's which actually _is a story being told in universe by someone who wasn't there_.

What the original Japanese says:

"In the times long past, before man first emerged, the gods descended upon the world when it was nothing but chaos. Using their various abilities, they brought order and life to the world.

The "god of power" used [his/her] flame to dye the mountains red and made the earth.

The "god of wisdom" made science and magic, and awarded the land with natural order.

And the "god of courage" used the kindness of [his/her] strong heart, and created those which crawl on the earth, those which travel in the air, and all of the living creatures of the world.

After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the "Triforce." Their course finally running to completion, the gods left the Triforce to govern this land."

http://www.zeldalegends.net/view/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

This is as close as we have to WoG by Nintendo. This is the origin of the Triforce and of Hyrule. We know now that the original creation is much more, with millions of different realities. This is the origin of Termina and all the other alternate worlds we've seen so far. And each of those worlds must also have a sacred realm, as demonstrated by ALBW.

There is no contradiction here. The Zeldaverse has grown a lot since 1998.

Originally posted by dika123
http://gematsu.com/2017/04/legend-zelda-breath-wild-open-air-concept-new-standard-producer-says

OK......

Who knows, maybe this version of Hyrule is one of those alternate realities.

- Is this all you're giving me? You're just doubling down and being circular because you had no specific retorts for things? I asked you to do a few things in my posts, and you have not done them at all. On the other hand I did everything you asked of me.

-On the difference of GoW's similarity to our universe compared to Zelda's, I won't even talk about GoW's half of that argument anymore. Because its mostly just a waste of time. I can see where that argument would have had some merit before but now its confirmed that GoW's verse is a legitimate universe filled with other galaxies, (and that's just building off of what seemed to be the case from Ascension's intro anyway). So trying to extrapolate for GoW is redundant since its already confirmed.

-As for Hyrule being older than its own Sun...Of course that's a problem. It's a much bigger problem than a flat earth. It's a huge problem, as it gives us a hint about creation in Zelda. The point is Hyrule is very biblical in its intelligent design with the world itself being so important and central to creation. Again, I do not for a second believe there are legitimate stars/nebulas/galaxies in Zelda because the main piece of creation, before we see anything else, is 'the world' being born. And that world is older than its own sun.
In the bible Earth is the most important creation out there, and the sun, stars and everything else were all made after the Earth and are subservient to the Earth. The Earth is the dominant figure in the sky and the central focus. Likewise, the allowed view of the world is super-protected in Zelda, (no upper or lower orbit shots of a planet, ever), and its older than its own Sun as well. So it's pretty easy to see the Zeldaverse as super small and concentrated around a single, central, celestial body: Hyrule. Just like the Bible does for Earth.
Again until I get some more information I'm sticking with the 'mini-solar systems' designation for Hyrule, Termina and Lorule. Even if there were a few million different versions of this kind of universe (which there isn't), it would still not even come close to a galaxy level feat.

-It's not just about the moon being corrupted giving it a face. None of the Termina residents from my recollection made a single mention of it suddenly developing a face, just that it was descending on them. So it was not unusual to them. Also, the residents in Termina are familiar with Moon's Tears, those blue tear shaped rocks that fall from the Moon's eyes. They are a regular occurence and were mentioned by that deku shrub looking merchant (whose name i forget) before its ever even mentioned or shown that the moon is falling.
So in one of the parallel dimensions of Hyrule, namely Termina, it is completely normal to have a moon with a face on it. So normal that the moon shedding tears is also a common occurence that is seen as a valuable commodity.

-Ah, the expected, but still disappointing goal post moving. 'Non-canon'. Great, except we aren't looking at those things for a story element, just a consistency of a basic visual element; in this case the moon's *size*. If it was merely an issue with the moon not being not to scale due to some "tech issue", then a higher fidelity CG commercial or a spin-off game 3 console generations later should solve that issue. But they didn't, the size was the same.
Also, concept art for the game is still canon, and that shows the moon inside termina's atmosphere, with clouds behind it, and its no bigger than what the game shows.
At some point you will have to try to actually prove the moon as being moon sized.
This handwringing and equivocating about the world not being scale doesn't change that the moon deliberately isn't moon sized when they could have easily shown it hitting the planet from a high orbit zoom out.
Even if say the town is smaller than its supposed to be (of which there is no proof), the moon's size was still in comparison to the town, in every shot. And in comparison to a few giants that were not that much taller than the clocktower in said town.
The Historia also said the Giants were specifically trying to stop the moon from plunging into town.
At no point is the Moon presented as larger than the a medium large asteroid mountain.

-Also, are you implying Nintendo is lazy? They put a lot of work into re-modeling and re-texturing majora's mask for the 3ds, but they are too lazy to simply do a simple planetary collision scene with a stretched out sprite for space and two basic low poly, low texture spheres colliding? That would have been easier to do in the first place back in 2000 than showing the moon's face right next to a town and a large field with trees and general terrain around, and yet they still opted to do it that way the first time and kept it that way for the remake also.

-Uh yes, those things do outright contradict your deleted, Nintendo of America written encyclopedia. If it didn't, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place against the Ocarina of Time cutscene, which shows a deliberate, meticulous creation of a world/planet by splitting up the task by into three seperate fields. One gives the impression of an accidental multiversal power (and is not referenced anywhere else), and the other shows meticulous world creation and is referenced repeatedly, often verbatim.
All that means is Nintendo is keen on repeating things when they are correct. And they delete/ignore shit that isn't, such as the timeline that used to be on that old zelda.com and that deleted encyclopedia that was there as well.
The encyclopedia entry says Termina and all other parallel worlds to Hyrule was an 'accidental' creation, and yet that is not repeated anywhere else at all. The Historia never says Termina was an accidental creation, there is no mention of any accidental parallel world creation at all. And what other parallel world do we know of? That's right, Lorule, and we know for sure that Lorule was not an accidental creation because we know it has its ownTriforce, which is created upon the Goddess' exit to the heavens.
So Lorule already proves the categorical statement of accidental parallel worlds statement to be false.

-I'm not getting caught up by Din's strong, flaming arms. Rather you are getting caught up with your its 'just a story by the Deku Tree' excuse that you keep trying to use to handwave away for your convenience. I showed you that that this particular statement about Din cultivating the earth with her arms was repeatedly stated, even outside the context of the 1998 cutscene--that cutscene by the way, is still most in-depth and complete showing of LoZ creation story in any of the games, so its damn important. Know what isn't important at all? A deleted, hyperbolic, unreferenced encyclopedia entry written up by a low credibility Nintendo of America.
Your excuse about us not specifically seeing Din use her arms is rather shoddy and filled with irony. It's obviously not meant to be a complete showing of them creating the world, just a condensed version. You mention that all we see is a ball of fire and rocks come together, but AFTER Din sets off that ball of fire and the rocks/boulders gather together, we see a first person flight over the surface of the world and are being told that Din used her strong flaming arms to cultivate the land. So AFTER the land mass clumped together in total, she shaped it using her strong flaming arms. So no, there is no contradiction. (And that's a pretty epic speed feat for her, considering she seems to be human sized in the cutscene). It would be pretty hard to convincingly animate that anyway, especially on n64 since the rest of the game is pretty jankily animated even for normal mundane things like sword swings.
As for the irony, how can you imply that the oft repeated statement about her using her arms to shape world is false *simply* because we don't outright see it, yet turn around and say the Moon is moon sized even though we never see it (or even have it stated at least)? That and how can you put a deleted encyclopedia entry that has zero referrals to it anywhere in the canon, on a greater canonical importance than a primary source like the game, its instruction manuals & product page? Afterall, not only is it never referred to anywhere else, we don't see it happening in that or any cutscene either. So its 0 for 2 in visibility.

-It is a mural. Just look at it. Do the game's graphics look like that? No? Then its a mural, and can viewed as mostly symbolic/metaphorical, not literal to a T. Your own lore description from the manual contradicts it and falls in line with what the OoT manual says. Except OoT's manual and cutscene goes into even more detail.
Uh yes, Zelda has gotten bigger since 1998. And its gotten bigger through Termina and Lorule being revealed as alternate versions of Hyrule, and there being revealed to be 3 branching timelines. Not through a faulty, deleted, zero reference having Nintendo of America website encyclopedia entry.

I tell you what, we are set to have the hyrule encyclopedia release in the states later this year. We will see what it says regarding the Goddesses. I will bet you that it says the same kinda thing that OoT says, and that it will have absolutely nothing about accidental millions of parallel worlds created through breathing. Regardless, we will let that encyclopedia settle this for us.

Lmao at the wank.

Kratos still likely wins though as long as Link doesn't have the triforce.

Originally posted by ares834
Lmao at the wank.

Kratos still likely wins though as long as Link doesn't have the triforce.

Is this all you're giving me?

-As for Hyrule being older than its own Sun...Of course that's a problem.

"Before time began". Think about this.

and no, it's really not, lol.

Ah, the expected, but still disappointing goal post moving. 'Non-canon'. Great, except we aren't looking at those things for a story element, just a consistency of a basic visual element;

-Also, are you implying Nintendo is lazy? They put a lot of work into re-modeling and re-texturing majora's mask for the 3ds, but they are too lazy to simply do a simple planetary collision scene with a stretched out sprite for space and two basic low poly, low texture spheres colliding?

You realize MM was made in under two years with primarily reused assets, right? But even so, no, that's not the point. The scene you describe would have sucked. They would have had to create new assets for a shittier version of the same scene. Why would they do this?

And here's part of why I'm simply ignoring large parts of your posts. Your rambling. You're going off on irrelevancies. "Well they didn't do the scene how I would've done it, and non canon material shows inconsistent sizes with other non canon material and some of it has no frame of reference and order of operations matters before time exists making the entire concept of "before" moot, and the bible which has nothing to do with Zelda."

Uh yes, those things do outright contradict your deleted, Nintendo of America written encyclopedia. If it didn't, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place against the Ocarina of Time cutscene, which shows a deliberate, meticulous creation of a world/planet by splitting up the task by into three seperate fields.

All that means is Nintendo is keen on repeating things when they are correct. And they delete/ignore shit that isn't, such as the timeline that used to be on that old zelda.com and that deleted encyclopedia that was there as well.

The encyclopedia entry says Termina and all other parallel worlds to Hyrule was an 'accidental' creation, and yet that is not repeated anywhere else at all. The Historia never says Termina was an accidental creation, there is no mention of any accidental parallel world creation at all. And what other parallel world do we know of? That's right, Lorule, and we know for sure that Lorule was not an accidental creation because we know it has its ownTriforce, which is created upon the Goddess' exit to the heavens.

I'm not getting caught up by Din's strong, flaming arms. Rather you are getting caught up with your its 'just a story by the Deku Tree' excuse that you keep trying to use to handwave away for your convenience. I showed you that that this particular statement about Din cultivating the earth with her arms was repeatedly stated, even outside the context of the 1998 cutscene--that cutscene by the way, is still most in-depth and complete showing of LoZ creation story in any of the games, so its damn important. Know what isn't important at all? A deleted, hyperbolic, unreferenced encyclopedia entry written up by a low credibility Nintendo of America.

As for the irony, how can you imply that the oft repeated statement about her using her arms to shape world is false

"Termina was in trouble. The moon was
plummeting toward the earth, and, in three
days’ time, the world would be destroyed."

Page 111.

And then you go on to use something unquantifiable, the giants, to try to further argue the moon is smol, which flies in the face of both the original Japanese of MM and again of Hyrule Historia where the giants are:

"The Legendary Gi ants
Skull Kid’s friends are guardian deities
that inhabit each region of Termina.
Though they depart to the four corners
of the earth to fulfill their purpose, Skull
Kid feels that they have abandoned him
and goes on a rampage"

But hey, you know, lets run with that. It's not like individual guardian deities have destroyed mountains before, ri-

Oh dear. Faron flooded nearly a third of Hyrule on a whim, and the fire dragon whose name I can't remember in SS sometimes causes explosive volcanic eruptions by accident. Volvagia was powerful enough to ravage the world if he escaped death mountain per WoG, so on, and so forth.

A "mountain" sized moon shouldn't be a problem for the combined effort of several beings on this level of power.

So, yes. You are caught up on the arms and you need to not get on my case about irony.

It's obviously not meant to be a complete showing of them creating the world,

but AFTER Din

So AFTER the

It is a mural. Just look at it. Do the game's graphics look like that? No? Then its a mural,

Found another mural.

Uh yes, Zelda has gotten bigger since 1998. And its gotten bigger through Termina and Lorule being revealed as alternate versions of Hyrule, and there being revealed to be 3 branching timelines. Not through a faulty, deleted, zero reference having Nintendo of America website encyclopedia entry.

You don't like it =/= its faulty. This is why there are alternate realities. Nothing contradicts it.

"Before time began". Think about this. and no, it's really not, lol.

They made Hyrule before its own sun, and before everything else we see in the sky.

Yeah, exactly. Making this a small, intimate, Biblical type of World creation with a tiny universe in which the Hyrule/The World is the dominant piece of the cosmos, which is why I said they made a mini-solar system at best. Until you find a WoG statement that says the Zelda verse is filled with a bunch of galaxies, that's all we have. A tiny world creation. Even if they did make a million of these, (which they did not, at all), it still wouldn't even come close to even a single galaxy level feat.

So you're citing non-canon material. Glad we've sorted that out.

Except the game itself, and the concept art for said game, both of which are canon. Oh, and you didn't mention that Japanese ad as being 'non-canon' when I mentioned it the first time, you simply said it gives 'no scale for reference'. When I pointed out that as untrue, THEN you tried to squirm with the sniveling "errmmm...well its all non-canon anyway" pivot. That's why what you did is so hilarious.

Oh, and the bit in the Historia about the giants (who are hill sized), specifically stopping the moon from plunging 'into the town'. The Historia's words, Not mine.

So you concede that you can't find any actual evidence that the moon is moon sized. Glad we've sorted that out.

Btw, know what else is non-canon? A deleted, zero reference holding Nintendo of America theory encyclopedia that got replaced by this online guide, which does not contain any mention of those prior encyclopedia entries.

They visually updated a 15 year old game for the 3DS? Woo. You realize MM was made in under two years with primarily reused assets, right?

Snip

2 years? Cool. The scene I described could have been done by one person in a few hours or days, in the original game, back in 2000. And yet, they opted to show the Moon as being the size of a large hill/small mountain.

Since you can't seem to find an actual reason or explanation of the moon's size being smaller. This still only leaves us with the game and concept art, which both support my argument.

Even if something is non-canon, it is still at least official. And well, your belief, which is all you have, is totally unofficial.

So my combination of game/concept art/other official material which all points to the moon being around the level of a large hill sized meteor > Your mere belief that the moon is meant to be moon sized.

That's why you are waffling, hand-wringing, and equivocating because you know you can't back your belief up at all. It's eating you up that you can't seem to actually prove what I'm asking you to prove.

Except their work was always divided from their inception in aLttP. That has nothing to do with anything. thumb up Whether it's muh flaming arms, or muh breath, they chased away emptiness, created everything that exists, and accidentally did it over again millions of times.

If they did make a million+ worlds one by one via Din's foundation shaping flaming arms, then that negates the purpose of the quote in the first place. It no longer becomes a million+ world power feat, which is what you were trying to show with your deleted, non-canon breathing quote. It becomes the equivalent of me stacking millions of bricks together, over some unknown period of time.

You are trying to mix and match so you don't lose out either way by keeping the 'accidental' modifier, except that modifier was not used anywhere else. There is no mention in Termina of that world being an accident, or in Lorule. Fun fact, the Historia never even once use the word 'accident' in it. At all. Anywhere. It mentions its timeline as the 'Creation of the Land and Sky', as the first part of the timeline, and nothing else. So until you get some further proof, its all deliberate.

You know what the Historia also doesn't do? It doesn't mention 'millions of worlds' either. Not once. Not even 'many' or 'countless' worlds.

Also you know what didn't split up the work into different segments? Your discredited, deleted, non-canon encyclopedia. Let's see what they say about the Goddesses specifically:

"Din, Goddess of Power
Working with her two sisters, Din assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Power to the Sacred Triforce."

"Nayru, Goddess of Wisdom
Working with her two sisters, Nayru assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Wisdom to the Sacred Triforce."

"Farore, Goddess of Courage
Working with her two sisters, Farore assisted in the creation of Hyrule at the beginning of time. She also contributed the Triforce of Courage to the Sacred Triforce."

Notice how it says almost identically the same thing? Literally the only difference is their name and what piece of the triforce they made.

No mention of Din making the red earth specifically, or Nayru making order for the world or Farore making life for the world. They kept it vague so it meshes with their unsupported breathing theory. According to them they just all breathed, in an identical way, and their breath just formed everything without any specialization.

What a shitty encyclopedia, no wonder it was deleted.

Ah, yes, the part where you presuppose motivation. You do this a lot. The entirery of zelda.com was rebuilt from scratch, the encyclopedia is one of a lot of things that didn't come back. That doesn't mean you get to ignore its contents. thumb up This feat happened.

Nope. The feat didn't happen. Hence why it was deleted and replaced by material that contradicts and actually reinforces the original 1998 material, and not NOA's unsolicited, unsupported theories. The encyclopedia was a non-canon Nintendo of America creation and the website had other flat out incorrect things on it that were also deleted.

There are several references to the OoT creation of the world, some repeated verbatim, which happened through deliberate use of powers and strength, not 'breathing'.

If the encyclopedia was credible they would have kept at least some of it in some section of the site, but instead it was totally replace by this online guide: http://zelda.com/online-guide/ ...Which is actually far more sparse in information, and keeping in line with how mysterious and vague Aonuma and Miyamoto prefer to keep things. They didn't even copy and paste a single encyclopedia entries wording in that new online guide.

Again, as I told you, if you can give me some WoG stating that the deleted encyclopedia entries in question are credible, I'll concede. But until then, its just a non-canon, discredited, and deleted Nintendo of America creation.

Multiple references to OoT's creation story on the current site as it is in 2017, including verbatim repeat of information >>>>> A deleted encyclopedia that was not ever repeated in canon anywhere and existed in a vaccuum.

It's almost like when the goddesses where effecting multiple realities at once they effected multiple realities at once. Holy shit.

Oh no, rather its like Lorule, which is a parallel world, was created exactly like Hyrule was. Deliberately. By the Gods. Not 'accidentally' through a 'breath' that traveled beyond where they were originally.

Yuga, a Lorule resident, specifically mentions the Gods, and the Triforce exists in that world. And how is a Triforce made? After the Goddesses exit a world after creating it.

Your shitty, deleted, non-canon encyclopedia entry would have us believe that the Gods never visited these parallel worlds because they didn't even know they would come to exist.

Except the Gods are clearly known to Lorule, just like they are known to Hyrule, and they have their own Triforce to boot! This stuff just isn't jelling. 🙁 Thank God the offending encyclopedia entry was deleted, now we don't have to worry about it anymore. 😉

See, here's your problem again. You think these contradict one another. They don't. You're hung up on the Deku Tree's wording of something he wasn't present for. It doesn't invalidate meta information which expands on what he said.

No, as I clearly explained in that section (which you conveniently cut short), its NOT just the Deku Tree's words. That's what YOU want it to be.

The words are given to us verbatim in the OoT instruction manual as I clearly showed in my screen-capture. And just like your ALTTP instruction manual quoting, its meta-info.

Since the words that are coming out of the Deku's trees mouth is repeated elsewhere, and (not even crediting him in those locations), then its merely meta-info that is repeated to us in-game (by an extremely old, and thus intended to be very credible character.)

If it gets repeated multiple places, then its credible. Sorry, but your incessant attempt to undermine the Deku's Tree's credibility is hilarious. Even if he wasn't credible, it wouldn't matter, because its not his words in particular. It's meta-info from Nintendo that gets repeated in game.

Proof? Here. Once more: http://zelda.com/ocarina3d/story/
Straight from Zelda.com, right now, in 2017. What does it stay?

It says:

Before life began, before the world had form, three golden goddesses descended upon the chaotic land of Hyrule. They were Din, the goddess of power, Nayru, the goddess of wisdom and Farore, the goddess of courage.

Din, with her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land to create the earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth to give the spirit of law to the world. Farore's rich soul created all life forms who would uphold the law.

These three great goddesses returned to the heavens, leaving behind the sacred Triforce. Since then, the Triforce has become the basis for Hyrule's providence. Where the Triforce stood became sacred land.

In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule, the Great Deku Tree served as the Guardian Spirit. The children of the forest, the Kokiri, lived with the Great Deku Tree. Each Kokiri had his or her own guardian fairy, except one. His name was Link.

There you go, the first 4 paragraphs from the Story page, and guess what? The Deku Tree is referred to in the third person! Lol. So, it's not even his words. It's Nintendo's words, that they repeat in-game through him, since he is old and well, credible.

More ironic is that you think the Deku Tree saying the gods created different aspects of reality debunks a feat where they do exactly that. The use of the word "arms" is entirely irrelevant. The scene where this is said has her emanating power without physical contact. So you're going to try to cite OoT to debunk a feat that doesn't contradict OoT, by citing the wording of OoT that is contradicted by the visuals of OoT? And then you're going to try to use the visuals of MM to contradict the words of Hyrule Historia.

Once again, you are not reading the stuff you are partially quoting, you are not accurately responding at all.

There is NO contradiction between OoT's visuals and that narration. Din's ball of fire gathers a bunch of rocks together and then right *after*, it shows her flying in first person view over the world at low altitudes, even going as low as ground level, accompanied with the narration that her strong flaming arms are cultivating the land.

*Gathers land mass together with fire powers*
*Shapes it using her arms right afterward as per narration*

There is no contradiction.

There is however, no 'breathing' whatsoever ever going on, so there is definitely a contradiction between the deleted encyclopedia entry that you so desperately want to elevate above everything else vs the Game's cutscene/narration/manual meta info/product page meta info (all of which neatly agree with each other, entirely). No 'breathing', but we certainly see explicit magic powers being used however, i.e. that primordial ball of fire.

And I'm sorry, but you are so, so confused.

The Hyrule Historia matches up completely with MM's visuals. There is no contradiction. MM's visuals show a moon that is not much wider than a town, maybe twice as wide. And that multi-town sized moon is going to destroy the entire world, which the HH also agrees with. The Hyrule Historia likewise also refers to the Moon's size as being diminutive when on page 112, as I said before:

The day of destiny had arrived. The Four
Giants stretched out their arms and held
up the moon, stopping it from plunging
into the town.

So, yeah, the immediate thing it was touching down with was a town. An actual moon? Would have been touching a continent sized width.

Still, Termina's multi-town sized moon is apparently still big enough to take out their entire world. And being that its a parallel world to Hyrule, Hyrule would have been taken out by a moon of that size falling too. All of this is just an indictment of the size of the worlds in Zelda. They seem...awfully cozy to me if a small mountain sized/multi-town sized moon is all it takes to take out a world.

Perhaps the world is no bigger than its presented in Breath of the Wild? That's the most complete that its ever been seen, and yet its still no bigger than New York City. I'm not saying that's confirmed, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And then you go on to use something unquantifiable, the giants, to try to further argue the moon is smol, which flies in the face of both the original Japanese of MM and again of Hyrule Historia where the giants are:

"The Legendary Gi ants
Skull Kid’s friends are guardian deities
that inhabit each region of Termina.
Though they depart to the four corners
of the earth to fulfill their purpose, Skull
Kid feels that they have abandoned him
and goes on a rampage"

The phuck? The Giants aren't unquantifiable in size. We see them right next to the clock tower and they are maybe twice as tall.

Also, not sure why you posted that description when I've posted similar before about them, about how they sleep in the 4 separate regions of Termina. Nothing about that says continent sized Giants. Which they surely aren't.

The moon is seen in size comparison with 2 major things, the town, and the giants that surround the town.

And how big are those giants? Oh, right, the official concept art also shows them as small enough for skull kid to be seen close to them.

*posts a picture of a rocky hill that was split in two by something other than the four giants* Also quotes some feats that are irrelevant to the discussion in that they having nothing to do with the giants either

Firstly man. Dueling Peaks is humble, rocky hill. It's so small that you can see an average tree growing on it from that distance, even bushes. It wasn't done by the Giants either, just some other Guardian spirits of another world. So...its irrelevant, we have no idea how we can power-scale that to the giants.

Regardless, do we even know how long it took for them to split that? If it wasn't done in a second, then I don't even consider it impressive.

Oh, and the rest of those feats have nothing to do with the Giants either, so I'm unsure why you posted them.

I'm not opposed to the idea that the moon is more durable than a similar sized landmass on the ground, but that has nothing to do with its size which is what my sticking point is.

There is no proof whatsoever that the moon is meant to be moon sized.

Huh, and yet it's supposed to somehow contradict expanded details decided later in the canon.

"Canon"

Right.

Because a deleted, discredited, never referenced or recalled encyclopedia entry by a non-primary source (nintendo of america) is somehow adding to the 'canon'.

Found another mural.

Thanks for the help, I was going to post the high-concept art shots of what the 16 bit world actually looks like, but I forgot when I was editing that part into my wordpad file.

So thank you, you've confirmed that this:

...is indeed nothing but a painting/mural.

You don't like it =/= its faulty. This is why there are alternate realities. Nothing contradicts it.

It's not about what I like. There have been many other people posting reservations about the old Zelda.com, going back for years, I posted examples of why due to several pieces of flat out inaccurate info, most dubiously a timeline that used to be posted on the site way back that was completely trashed and was subsequently deleted.

And yeah, the current zelda.com, in 2017, completely contradicts your clearly non-canon deleted encyclopedia, as I highlighted the prior post.

Lets put up or shut up on this. I'm not going to respond anymore to the specifics of the this thread, only to one thing

I propose a wager

Take up my challenge if you are so confident about your deleted encyclopedia's reliability.

There will be a Hyrule Encyclopedia releasing soon in the states. If that says anything resembling the deleted encyclopedia's entry, I'll give you a $100. If it doesn't, you'll give me a $100.

I'll lighten the burden on your wager. I won't even require it to say anything about 'millions' of worlds. (We both know that was an ass-pull number by NoA that Aonuma would know anything about). All it has to say is something vague like 'many worlds' or 'an unknown number of' or 'countless worlds', but it does have to say those other worlds were created accidentally, (or similar words).

Are you in or not? No more of this running around, put your money where your mouth is or its clear you don't believe your own words.

They made Hyrule before its own sun, and before everything else we see in the sky.

Except the game itself, and the concept art for said game, both of which are canon.

👆

Except the game itself, and the concept art for said game, both of which are canon. Oh, and you didn't mention that Japanese ad as being 'non-canon' when I mentioned it the first time, you simply said it gives 'no scale for reference'. When I pointed out that as untrue, THEN you tried to squirm with the sniveling "errmmm...well its all non-canon anyway" pivot. That's why what you did is so hilarious.

It doesn't give any scale for reference and it's not canon. Be angrier.

If it gets repeated multiple places, then its credible. Sorry, but your incessant attempt to undermine the Deku's Tree's credibility is hilarious. Even if he wasn't credible, it wouldn't matter, because its not his words in particular. It's meta-info from Nintendo that gets repeated in game.

Nope. The feat didn't happen.

Except the Gods are clearly known to Lorule, just like they are known to Hyrule,

...And? Cyclos was a god, Hylia was a god, there are tons of gods in Zelda. He didn't say "the goddesses!", or anything telling at all.

Termina had gods, too, why wouldn't Lorule?

2 years? Cool. The scene I described could have been done by one person in a few hours or days,

That's why you are waffling, hand-wringing, and equivocating because you know you can't back your belief up at all. It's eating you up that you can't seem to actually prove what I'm asking you to prove.

If they did make a million+ worlds one by one via Din's foundation shaping flaming arms, then that negates the purpose of the quote in the first place.

You know what the Historia also doesn't do? It doesn't mention 'millions of worlds' either. Not once. Not even 'many' or 'countless' worlds.

Also you know what didn't split up the work into different segments?

Women is plural, my dude. The quotes you shared and the quote that's relevant all attribute creation to the collaborative effort of the three goddesses.

Once again, you are not reading the stuff you are partially quoting, you are not accurately responding at all.

There is NO contradiction between OoT's visuals and that narration.

There is however, no 'breathing' whatsoever ever going on,

So, yeah, the immediate thing it was touching down with was a town. An actual moon? Would have been touching a continent sized width.

Still, Termina's multi-town sized moon

The phuck? The Giants aren't unquantifiable in size. We see them right next to the clock tower and they are maybe twice as tall.

Firstly man. Dueling Peaks is humble, rocky hill.

Because a deleted, discredited,

...is indeed nothing but a painting/mural.

"It is a mural. Just look at it. Do the game's graphics look like that? No? Then its a mural,"

mmm

Zelda manuals are just filled with murals, it would seem.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's not about what I like. There have been many other people posting reservations about the old Zelda.com, going back for years, I posted examples of why due to several pieces of flat out inaccurate info, most dubiously a timeline that used to be posted on the site way back that was completely trashed and was subsequently deleted.

And yeah, the current zelda.com, in 2017, completely contradicts your clearly non-canon deleted encyclopedia, as I highlighted the prior post.

Lets put up or shut up on this. I'm not going to respond anymore to the specifics of the this thread, only to one thing

[b]I propose a wager

Take up my challenge if you are so confident about your deleted encyclopedia's reliability.

There will be a Hyrule Encyclopedia releasing soon in the states. If that says anything resembling the deleted encyclopedia's entry, I'll give you a $100. If it doesn't, you'll give me a $100.

I'll lighten the burden on your wager. I won't even require it to say anything about 'millions' of worlds. (We both know that was an ass-pull number by NoA that Aonuma would know anything about). All it has to say is something vague like 'many worlds' or 'an unknown number of' or 'countless worlds', but it does have to say those other worlds were created accidentally, (or similar words).

Are you in or not? No more of this running around, put your money where your mouth is or its clear you don't believe your own words. [/B]

Just as I thought, you have no conviction on this whatsoever.

You are using a shitty cop-out about them not revealing BoTW's timeline placement to avoid putting your theory on the line.

And likewise you are dismissing it as 'barebones'? The phuck ? I've seen a few preview scans, and its full of images and diagrams and its supposed to be like 320 pages long.

If that premium encyclopedia is bare bones, then your deleted web encyclopedia must be non-existent in comparison.

Oh, wait, it kinda is...lol. Seeing as its been completely wiped off the website and only exists through a web archive.

It is so ironic and sad that you are trying to cling to a deleted website encyclopedia yet won't abide by an actual physical, up-to-date, premium encyclopedia. An encyclopedia that is a follow up to your vaunted Hyrule Historia.

Fear not, I will get it and will post about it. Your hesitation just strengthens my belief that it will completely and utterly contradict your deleted, outdated, and unreferenced info.

Just as I thought, you have no conviction on this whatsoever.

You are using a shitty cop-out about them not revealing BoTW's timeline placement to avoid putting your theory on the line.

It is so ironic and sad that you are trying to cling to a deleted website encyclopedia yet won't abide by an actual physical, up-to-date, premium encyclopedia. An encyclopedia that is a follow up to your vaunted Hyrule Historia.

Fear not, I will get it and will post about it. Your hesitation just strengthens my belief that it will completely and utterly contradict your deleted, outdated, and unreferenced info.

Who knows then, maybe when you finally get it, months from now, you'll finally be able to contradict me.

Best of luck.

ok. how about speed then ? Kratos should have FTL Speed. and Link.... ??

Hits lightning and slows down time. So...fast?