Who and what is Valkorion?

@SunRazer

Post-Nathema Vitiate is referred to as Lord Vitiate only in the context of Ritual of Nathema and immediate developments after that. For example:

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, same source makes this point afterwards:

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement corroborates the view of Darth Nyriss:

"Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

Taken from Star Was: The Old Republic: Revan

----

More importantly, we have revelations that suggest that Post-Nathema Vitiate is a being unique in the galaxy; an entity who embraced different identities for different civilizations such as Sith Emperor for Sith Empire and Immortal Emperor for Zakuul Empire. At this stage, he is no mere Sith Lord.

@AP - Well, the thread is basically you copying quotes and saying them, then jumping to a conclusion at the end. Not sure what you want me to make of that. There's almost no actual argument here.

I'm fine with the comparison to Malachor, but using the Meetra's comparison in the novel doesn't make much sense. Meetra's entire ordeal on Nathema makes no sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@[B]SunRazer

Post-Nathema Vitiate is referred to as Lord Vitiate only in the context of Ritual of Nathema and immediate developments after that. For example:

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, same source makes this point afterwards:

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement corroborates the view of Darth Nyriss:

"Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

Taken from Star Was: The Old Republic: Revan

And then we have several statements implying uniqueness of Post-Nathema Vitiate and being something more than that. [/B]

Well, for one thing, your quote from Nyriss explicitly calls him a Sith, but there's also other quotes that do the same. You can be some reality-warping entity and more of an energy being than a living one and still be a Sith. Case in point being Palpatine...

I'm making conclusions based on evidence sourced, in other words I see nothing to refute said conclusion nor another conclusion to make based on said statement.

I'm making it clear that 1. He is factually not a Sith Lord, that's just another mask. 2. His powers have evolved to the most extreme depths of the dark side of the Force, thus negating that Sidious could be even moreso.

I'm perfectly fine with them being equals however, because Sidious gets the same accolades as of DE.

Yes, but there's no argument. It's literally just evidence and a conclusion.

I'm also not sure how you can bring up the novel quote about Vitiate no longer being a member of the Sith species and then go on to say that Valkorion's codex was referring to him as a member of the Sith species...

And sure, Vitiate did take the dark side to the extreme, but not to its utmost extreme. He never achieved that level of reality warping power that Palpatine wielded by DE, and in part by RotJ.

He was no longer a member of the species but that is his origin.

No he didn't warp reality, instead he was a manifestation of the Void of Annihilation. Two very different but exceptionally impressive states of being.

In which case "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity" would not be referring to that...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, for one thing, your quote from Nyriss explicitly calls him a Sith, but there's also other quotes that do the same. You can be some reality-warping entity and more of an energy being than a living one and still be a Sith. Case in point being Palpatine...

We have this in the nutshell:

Immortal Emperor > Sith Emperor > Lord Vitiate

Darth Plagueis was a Sith Lord but not an Emperor and never stopped being a Sith at any point.

Palpatine became an Emperor during OT era. I don't recall him shedding his Sith identity during DE era either. If you want to perceive DE Palpatine as a being above Sith, I am OK with it.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

—Codex: The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

Medriaas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.

—Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

8000 Sith Lords + Pre-Ritual Vitiate > Sidious, then.

I give up. ggwp

Unless a) the Encyclopedia's wrong or b) largest ≠ strongest.

And he still followed Sith teachings. It was all about getting what he wants.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Post-Nathema Vitiate is a being unique in the galaxy; an entity who embraced different identities for different civilizations such as Sith Emperor for Sith Empire and Immortal Emperor for Zakuul Empire. He shed the identity of Sith after his Voice was struck down in Dromund Kaas.

And this:

Immortal Emperor > Sith Emperor > Lord Vitiate

Darth Plagueis was a Sith Lord but not an Emperor and never stopped being a Sith at any point. Same goes for Palpatine.

Your case makes no sense. IIRC, Palpatine isn't even referred to as a Sith by DE anymore by any source, and he too is now an energy being that is not defined by any living form. It's like with Valkorion. If you grant Valkorion the status of moving beyond the Sith, then you have to do the same with Palpatine. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And Palpatine is the most powerful expression of the dark side to date, bar the Son (who is exempt by virtue of a retcon). That would include Valkorion until he gets a quote putting him above Palpatine.

As far as identities are concerned, Palpatine was just the Emperor by that point. He was interested in attaining ultimate power for himself, not furthering the goals of the Sith. It's not made explicitly clear that he's surrendered the Sith identity but he's not referred to as a Sith in any context by DE, to my knowledge.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In which case "Valkorion [b]is an ancient Sith entity" would not be referring to that... [/B]

He is an ancient Sith Entity, but of course he isn't actually a member of the Sith species anymore, he's an Entity. DE Palpatine is still a human, but he's become more energy than physical. A more literal comparison is that Grievous is a Kaleesh Cyborg, but still a Kaleesh.

Pretty much every Sith spirit in the book is still referred to be their original race too. Nihilus is even referred to as a man, but in spiritual form.

@SunRazer

Recheck my (edited) response above.

And please wait a bit before responding to any post of mine because I tend to correct my posts after making them.

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

—Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

—Codex: Monolith

Let's just leave it at that and never rank him again. Ever.

@Legend - I edited my response as well.

@Gesitalt - History's most powerful dark side master up to TOR, not after. And it's in-universe, as you correctly pointed out. There are definite limitations to the knowledge of the Encyclopedia (IIRC, it didn't even know the outcome of the Malgus fight).

Honestly it's getting pretty facetious to cling to one (in-universe) Codex Entry when all other evidence points to Valkorion no longer being a Sith. Hall Hood even says that they are all just masks, all means to his end. Escaping his past.

@SunRazer

I don't see an edit in your response to me.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Honestly it's getting pretty facetious to cling to one (in-universe) Codex Entry when all other evidence points to Valkorion no longer being a Sith.

And how do you know the Codex entries are Watsonian?

Nice thread. Good Plagueis wank. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your case makes no sense. IIRC, Palpatine isn't even referred to as a Sith by DE anymore by any source, and he too is now an energy being that is not defined by any living form. It's like with Valkorion. If you grant Valkorion the status of moving beyond the Sith, then you have to do the same with Palpatine. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And Palpatine is the most powerful expression of the dark side to date, bar the Son (who is exempt by virtue of a retcon). That would include Valkorion until he gets a quote putting him above Palpatine.

As far as identities are concerned, Palpatine was just the Emperor by that point. He was interested in attaining ultimate power for himself, not furthering the goals of the Sith. It's not made explicitly clear that he's surrendered the Sith identity but he's not referred to as a Sith in any context by DE, to my knowledge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine became an Emperor during OT era. I don't recall him shedding his Sith identity during DE era either. If you want to perceive DE Palpatine as a being above Sith, I am OK with it.

My case makes perfect sense.

Tenebrae < Lord Vitiate < Sith Emperor* < Immortal Emperor

*Grey Zone phase

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nice thread. Good Plagueis wank. 👆