Hall Hood on Valkorion's Power and his Force Storm

Not that I necessarily agree, but I think Valkorion's wormholes can alternatively be seen as another area where he's been shadowed by Palpatine. Hood notes that Valkorion's is focused and controlled, but hadn't Palpatine perfected his wormholes also (with the exception of the one that destroyed him due to Luke and Leia)? Nevertheless, I do think them both using wormholes further solidifies Valkorion being close to DE Palpatine in the sense that, at the very least, he's the original model and Palpatine is the perfected version (which is how a lot of sources portray Palpatine in the grand scheme of the Sith anyway, being the "pinnacle" of Darth Bane's plan and whatnot (although noting the difference between Palpatine and Valkorion isn't nearly as profound and intentionally very similar and, as per Hood, already equal in many ways)). If we are going to put Valkorion definitively below DE Palpatine, and I agree with AP completely that some feats of his are still be completely overlooked (especially Ziost) so we shouldn't do that quite just yet, then I'd say he's on Palpatine's tail but just not *quite* there.

It's definitely absurd to put RotS (or even RotJ) Palpatine above Valkorion without even looking back though. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

I just think KOTFE/KOTET (especially KOTET) ruined Valk's chances of being at or above DE Sheev. I get it Ziost was incredible...but KOTFE Chapter 1 and Valkorion being incapable of dominating the Outlander for years (and only by burrowing in the Outlander's mind,) only to have his dominion over the Outlander's mind be overturned in a snap was rather pathetic.

I mean, even cosmologically: Valk wanted a new, Young, immensely powerful body to rule the galaxy, Sidious wanted to absorb the universe into his ego, (which is more in line with Vitiate's much more cosmologicslly impressive original plan).

On a side note, I also find it interesting that, as per DE writers, Palpatine was never intended to be the GOAT but ended up being the GOAT due to what he displayed.

And then we have Valkorion, who's arguably behind Palpatine in what he's displayed, but then was actually intended to be the GOAT.

Failure on both the writers parts?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
only to have his dominion over the Outlander's mind be overturned in a snap was rather pathetic. .

Valkorion was just too poorly handled to ever be the GOAT. His plans turned from transcendentally manipulative and all-powerful to absolutely thwarted within 9 Chapters. Chapter 16 of KOTFE to Chapter 9 of KOTET was literally Outlander knocking out the Eternal Family like dominoes. Like at the beginning of KOTFE, I truly had no idea how the hell Outlander was going to defeat Zakuul. Then it kind of fell into his lap.

For the record, I do have a similar issue with how Palpatine was defeated in ROTJ.

I mean, Palpatine is a Force entity of pure dark side Force energy. His soul being, power included, was somehow contained within that ****ing floating ball.

That's just... humiliating.

The entirety of Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End definitely showed Palpatine had fell so far from what he once was. He was a literal shadow of his former self.

You make good points of Valkorion's many failures in his final days, but compared to Palpatine, I'm willing to give Valkorion a pass since I have for Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Honestly, I think Palpatine's final days against the floating ball, Leia, and Han were just as pathetic; we just tend to ignore that and focus on Dark Empire 1.

But let's compare their VERY ENDS:

Valkorion: his ultimate plan was thwarted in a snap by the Outlander realizing it was his mind, his rules. We're talking about an Emperor who's been essence transferring and eating souls for 1400 years.

Sidious: his ultimate plans were thwarted by the children of a man with Father-tier potential and the spirits of every single Jedi in history pulled him into the ultimate void of the force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I mean, Palpatine is a Force entity of pure dark side Force energy. His soul being, power included, was somehow contained within that ****ing floating ball.

That's just... humiliating.

The entirety of Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End definitely showed Palpatine had fell so far from what he once was. He was a literal shadow of his former self.

You make good points of Valkorion's many failures in his final days, but compared to Palpatine, I'm willing to give Valkorion a pass since I have for Palpatine.

My issue is that even PEAK PHYSICAL VALKORION was getting thwarted and defeated for what seemed like forever. Meetra could have literally killed him with a saber throw in Revan. Hero of Tython and his droid fight through Vitiate's Uber nexus, give him more time to recover while expending energy fighting MORE elite guards to save his apprentice, and still resists Vitiate's TP and whoops his ass. Chapter 1 was all we saw of the great physical incarnation of Valkorion, before he was...back stabbed? 😬

Hell, There's a codex noting that Valkorion/Tenebrae has been cut down/killed multiple times.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On a side note, I also find it interesting that, as per DE writers, Palpatine was never intended to be the GOAT but ended up being the GOAT due to what he displayed.

And then we have Valkorion, who's arguably behind Palpatine in what he's displayed, but then was actually intended to be the GOAT.

Failure on both the writers parts?

In terms of forum debating, what's shown ultimately trumps what authors say. MCU developers say Thanos is the most powerful/cunning/dangerous villain in Marvel, when the evidence points to Thanos getting stomped and two shotted by the likes of Galactus. Stan Lee says Galactus is the most powerful being in the Marvel Universe, Beyonder and the Celestials put him down like a gnat. We can't trust the authors to tell us the answers when they all have different answers, IMO.

But let's compare their VERY ENDS:

Valkorion: his ultimate plan was thwarted in a snap by the Outlander realizing it was his mind, his rules. We're talking about an Emperor who's been essence transferring and eating souls for 1400 years.

Sidious: his ultimate plans were thwarted by the children of a man with Father-tier potential and the spirits of every single Jedi in history pulled him into the ultimate void of the force.

Was Palpatine ultimately thwarted by the children of the Chosen One though?

Valkorion was defeated by the greatest champion of the era (who took down all the big names of this era, including Revan and Malgus) and his own family. The circumstances of the defeat, as you point out, are absolutely pathetic, but at least we directly see multiple powerful forces unite to expel him from the galaxy.

Palpatine? I recall Palpatine running over to Leia, snatching a baby out of her hands, and then trying to transfer his soul into him. And then that floating ball, not a Skywalker, intercepts his spirit and brings him into the void. If it ended with Dark Empire 1 with Leia and Luke uniting to kill Palpatine, I'd completely agree with you. But we got that floating ball Jedi, who is so irrelevant in Star Wars history that I don't even know his name, being the ultimate reason for his death as far as I can tell.

And about that all the Jedi thing. I've always seen that as a minor quote in the comic that the audience has magnified in an attempt to overshadow the humiliation Palpatine just suffered. Palpatine getting swallowed by a ball doesn't look as bad when all the Jedi hold him down in the depths of hell, obviously. It's canon nonetheless, but just something I wanted to point out.

My issue is that even PEAK PHYSICAL VALKORION was getting thwarted and defeated for what seemed like forever. Meetra could have literally killed him with a saber throw in Revan. Hero of Tython and his droid fight through Vitiate's Uber nexus, give him more time to recover while expending energy fighting MORE elite guards to save his apprentice, and still resists Vitiate's TP and whoops his ass. Chapter 1 was all we saw of the great physical incarnation of Valkorion, before he was...back stabbed? erm

Hell, There's a codex noting that Valkorion/Tenebrae has been cut down/killed multiple times.

Yeah, this is an injustice Palpatine generally didn't suffer from. With the exception of his final death, all of Palpatine's deaths or near-death events were battles of extreme important.

Valkorion was generally portrayed as invincible, but not invulnerable.

Palpatine? In many ways, he's both.

I think that's a key distinction you're getting at here, which I have to admit. mmm

Whatever the case, I'm off to bed. Great conversation though. 👆 Miss having them w/ you.

I guess the ultimate point I'm trying to make regarding their downfalls is this: DE Sidious at his peak was taken down in a much more impressive way than Valkorion was. It required the children of Star Wars Jesus to thwart him at his peak, (can't neglect to mention that he had the prodigal son of Star Wars Jesus wrapped around his finger after one fight) and as you said, it requiring a light spirit army to entrap Palpatine's essence forever is ultimately canon; Valkorion at his peak got backstabbed, couldn't dominate the Outlander's will/body for years, and lost control as soon as he gained it. I see what you're saying with DE Sidious being trapped in a ball, but that was after his legit peak. That is the one edge I give Valk over Sidious: Valk was a much more viable combatant/force user as a spirit.

But hey, peak Valkorion blocked some saber strikes and oneshotted a Dooku or below Dooku level force user in Chapter 1 Arcann, (5 years removed from becoming definitively above Dooku in KOTFE Chapter 8-9), so he must be better, right? 🙂

Also, invincible and invulnerable are the same thing. 😉

My gripe is that they initially wrote Valkorion, from Ziost throughout KOTFE, as an invincible/invulnerable/unstoppable mastermind, then 180'd and made him simply incapable of controlling the Outlander until he hollowed out his mind. Sidious at his peak was portrayed as an invincible powerhouse who wanted to ****ing absorb the universe into his ego! nigh-irreparably imbalance the force alongside his master? Nah, that's some pre-TPM shit. 😉

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Whatever the case, I'm off to bed. Great conversation though. 👆 Miss having them w/ you.

Yeah, this was a great conversation. Valkorion and Sidious will always be my babies. 🙂

Tond, thoughts? I've seen you provide some quality ideas/arguments in favor of Valkorion's superiority in the past.

Where's the specific part that Valkorion's supposed to use Wormhole? Because the Lightning against Arcann was definitely not that...

Thoughts on me and Ant's discussion on the overarching comparison between Sidious and Vitiate?

Yikes, he doesn't say Valk used Force storm wormhole/Force storm anywhere tbh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Thoughts on me and Ant's discussion on the overarching comparison between Sidious and Vitiate?

Pretty good, actually. Not that I see eye-to-eye with you guys on everything, but at least I could follow it.

What do u disagree with, tbh?