Originally posted by SunRazer
There's also TCSWE claiming that Nihilus fed on numerous worlds that he blasted into ruin, although TCSWE does get some information on KotOR II drastically wrong (doesn't mean the entire source is invalid, though).
Yes numerous worlds. I've seen the argument floating around that he used ships to orbital bombard planets, so I'd like to take a moment to address that if anyone's interested.
Meetra: How did your master destroy your homeworld? To kill on such a scale... it's impossible.Visas: It was not a thing done with machines or weapons. The Force is far more terrible, and it touches more lives than any machine can hope to slay.
-KOTOR 2
Further:
Through an unholy dark-side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr, including Master Tokare.
-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, pg. 139
Had to get that off my chest!
Anyways...
Historically, draining a victim doesn't mean you add that victim's entire Force power to your own; far from it, in fact.
Historically? Before Nihilus used his ability, Vitiate had already done so through a ritual on Nathema that effectively made him immortal. It cannot be argued that the consumption of life/force energy (as well as essence) has no fortifying effect on the one consuming.
The accolades for Nihilus show out what we would expect of a person who has consumed multiple planets. You know the usual suspects... (not verbatim) "Having power that cannot be put into words (Kreia)", "So powerful he doesn't see the universe as mortals do (Kreia)", "so powerful only stars and worlds are enough to warrant his attention (Visas)", "so powerful even Meetra and company are as dust motes in a storm, as insignificant as bodies orbiting Malachor V (Tobin)", etc.
Part of that, I think, can be attributed to drain being an exhausting power to use on it's own. That's why there's little point in Nihilus draining worlds without Force users; he yields little actual net gain from normal people.
Well NewGuy01, the drain itself seems to be a super efficient ability. Nihilus on deaths door, practically with a pinky across the threshold was able to subconsciously reach out and drain others around him. We don't ever see the drain itself weakening him or lessening his power (outside of Meetra and her polar opposite stuff). In fact his weakening has nothing to do with Force Reserves, but rather with his Hunger (which is fueled by the Force itself).
Was thinking along the lines of,
He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body. It began as a tight circle, but quickly spread outward until it extended to a radius of ten meters, with the Sith Lord at the center. The air within the circumference of the field suddenly became darker, as if the light from the red sun above had been suddenly dimmed.Cloaked in the shadowy gloom, Bane simply held his ground against the enemy assault. The front ranks of onrushing cultists shrieked in agony as they entered the field, their life essence violently sucked out of their bodies, aging them a thousand years in only a few seconds. Muscles and tendons atrophied instantaneously; their skin withered and shrank, pulling tight across their bones. Eyes and tongues shriveled, turning them into mummified husks before their desiccated flesh crumbled away, leaving only skeletal remains and a few strands of hair.
The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims.
--Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Nihilus was blinding the largest section of the Republic from the view of the Force and setting up a dominion across said space, he'd evidently conquered hundreds of worlds, how many he actually destroyed is another question.
We also know that Kreia worries that Nihilus might grow so powerful that not even the Exile can destroy him.
@Miko - We established that it's not done through technology. That's stated more than once in KotOR II. Although it was kind of fun spinning that argument around without people realizing that the evidence to disprove it was right in front of their noses.
Historically as in throughout SW continuity, and I'm referring to all kinds of Drain, really. I've never seen a scenario where the caster simply gets the full power of the victim on top of their own.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Miko - We established that it's not done through technology. That's stated more than once in KotOR II. Although it was kind of fun spinning that argument around without people realizing that the evidence to disprove it was right in front of their noses.
Cool. I remember debating Anthony about it last year and he was debating a number of things about it. It compelled others to spread the heresy and I had to put fires out among a few friends because of it. Glad to see observant eyes realize the lies.
Historically as in throughout SW continuity, and I'm referring to all kinds of Drain, really. I've never seen a scenario where the caster simply gets the full power of the victim on top of their own.
To be fair, there's never really a showing of his kind of drain in the SW continuity. In KOTOR 2 it is stated to be the greatest of the Sith Teachings:
He is one who has learned the greatest of the Sith teachings - and it enslaved him. Until you are ready, we must not seek him out.
-KOTOR 2
Of course we already know its above normal drain, I don't see why it wouldn't have more powerful of an effect. Yet I do have to point out, this form of drain exceeds what normal drains do. Allow me to go back to KOTOR 1 for a moment.
As we all know, Force users who die, become powerful enough (and die), or get near enough to death can become one with the Force. This is where the "soul" passes from the living force to the Cosmic force, powering it. This concept is carried in KOTOR 1:
The Council is certain they are dead; their Master sensed them leaving this world to become one with the Force. More than this, I cannot say.
-KOTOR 1
During the final battle of KOTOR 1 between Malak and Revan we see that the Star Forge has specialized containment devices that stop Force users from becoming one with the Force, allowing Malak to continue to feed off their souls long after they should have:
Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!
-Darth Malak, KOTOR I
Eventually though their soul's energy can be depleted and you see their bodies turned to cracked husks when you try to activate them:
[The Jedi hangs in the grasp of the electrical prison, charred and drained of his lifeforce.]
-KOTOR 1
He consumes their life and force energy, and then the energy within their very *souls* until they are completely consumed. BUT if they *are* released, their souls can become "one with the Force":
[The Jedi has been freed from the grasp of the electrical prison. His soul has become one with the Force.]
-KOTOR 1
As you see from what I've shared, Force Users still have power beyond the moment when they should have become one with the Force. This in summary, is the power of their "souls". This concept extends elsewhere such as in regard to Sith Spirits / Force Ghosts and their energy reserves that when used up stop them from manifesting in the real world again.
So what does all of this have to do with the drain dynamic we see of Nihilus? As noted, those within Nihilus' aura are Sundered from the Force:
Sundered by Nihilus' aura, young Visas can see only death in the Force
-Star Wars KOTOR Campaign Guide, pg. 140
This sundering isn't a severing like Force Sever, it is a Wound type severing (a Dead Spot/Void in the Force area) that still allows Force Users to use what Force Reserves they bring with them, but it does not allow them to draw from, or be influenced by, the Force in the Galaxy. Which on a side note, is why the Wounds helped Jedi turn to the Dark Side. On Malachor V, the planetary Wound pushed away the Force's influence and all that the Jedi were exposed to was the Dark Side "Nexus" of the Trayus Core, meaning all they had influencing them was the Dark Side itself with no interference from the Light Side. This is also why his "Temptation" ability is so much more powerful than others and can more easily draw others to the dark side, and to him.
I'm rambling, sorry.
Anyways when Nihilus severs the being's connection to Life Energy, and the Force, the soul remains cut off. This is what Kreia references as "death" (something being cut off from the Force's flow, influence, or connection):
It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.
-Kreia, KOTOR 2
As we know, Meetra is one who is severed from the Force in a similar sense yet what Nihilus senses of her does not come from a living thing:
My Master was aware of a disturbance in the Force, but was unaware of its nature, of you. The disturbance is not something one feels from a living thing.
-Visas, KOTOR 2
As is stated of her:
You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied.
-Kreia, KOTOR 2
Back to Nihilus, we know his Drain type has the effect of severing the subject from the Force itself causing even the corpse to be an absence in the Force as demonstrated by Kreia's usage of the Drain:
[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]
-KOTOR 2, upon selecting one of the dead Jedi Master's corpses post Kreia Drain
So what does all that have to do with Nihilus? As stated, Nihilus cuts off the victim from the Force, which denies them the ability of becoming One with the Force. Kreia states he not only feeds on the Force Energy and Life Energy of his targets, but ALSO what remains after it is severed from the Force, the Soul.
At this point it should be understood that this drain is radically different than normal Drain (which is why I am confused as to why it is being compared to it). In fact in response to what I quoted of you, he isn't just getting their Force Reserves, and Life Energy upon draining them, he is also getting the energy of their "Soul" which empowers the Cosmic Force itself. This goes BEYOND devouring 100% of remaining Life/Force Energy, it goes well into the power of their very existence.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Was thinking along the lines of,...The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims.
--Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Ah I see what you mean. Maintaining the full time aura sapping his strength. The aura itself is efficient, and Nihilus always has enough bodies around to nullify the weakening effect it would have on him using it.
The weakness doesn't come from a lack of power, it comes from the Weakness of not having his hunger abated:
The Master suffers... if he cannot feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet... Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain him awhile longer.
-KOTOR 2
Something that's not quite understood about Nihilus out there is:
1.) The Force itself fuels his hunger:
The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds.
-Star Wars KOTOR Campaign Guide
2.) The HUNGER is a POWER SOURCE:
His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake, life dies... sacrificing itself to his hunger.
-KOTOR 2
3.) The power of this hunger is what gave him the power to transfer his spirit from his body to his armor:
Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor.
-Star Wars KOTOR Campaign Guide, pg.
4.) The dynamic between his hunger and the Force is that the more powerful he is in the Force, the more it is present with him (from consuming others), the greater his hunger is, and the greater the power from that hunger becomes. He gains more per drain than just additional Force Reserves, the power of his hunger increases as well. This is why I say it is an uber efficient power.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not sure why you're differentiating the force, life force, and the soul. It's all the same thing. The living force is life energy, and when your body dies that energy is what returns to the cosmic force.
Because one can have their Force Connections severed, and still have Life Energy. Cutting someone off from Force Energy does not kill them, not even in Meetra's case which is the most severe case of Sever Force ever seen in a STILL living being.
There is a difference in the connections here.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Because one can have their Force Connections severed, and still have Life Energy.
I recommend you read Traitor if you haven't already, as it addresses this rather nicely. To be completely severed from the Force is indeed to die; the Force is life, therefore life can't exist without the Force. Lliving beings who have been force-severed still possess some sort of connection to it, just on a lower frequency.
Ah, here are a couple relevant quotes from the novel.
If the Force is life, how can there be life without the Force? The question haunted him. It throbbed in the back of his head like an abscessed tooth. Vergere could have been talking about his life: how could he live without the Force? The answer was, of course, that he couldn't. He didn't.The Force was there. He just couldn't feel it. Anakin used to say that the Force was a tool, like a hammer. If the Force is a hammer, Jacen decided, then he was a carpenter with his arms cut off. He couldn't even see the hammer anymore. He couldn't remember what it looked like. But... If I came of a species that had never had arms, I wouldn't recognize a hammer... and I'd have no use for it, even if I somehow guessed what it was. A hammer would have nothing to do with me at all. Like the Force has nothing to do with the Yuuzhan Vong.
--New Jedi Order: Traitor
This was what he knew and understood: the answer for the Yuuzhan Vong was the same as the answer for himself. There is no life without the Force. The human eye does not register electromagnetic energy outside the tiny band of frequencies called visible light--but even though you can't see them, those frequencies exist. The Yuuzhan Vong and their creations must participate in a part of the Force that is beyond the range of Jedi senses. That's all. Jacen stood on the hillock, staring down at the dhuryam island with its ring of warrior-guards, and he thought, The Yuuzhan Vong aren't the only ones who participate in a part of the Force that is outside the range of Jedi senses.I do, too. He had always had a particular gift for making friends with alien species. He used to call it empathy, but it had always been more than shared emotion... It had been an improvised language that operated through a part of the Force that other Jedi didn't seem able to sense. That flash of empathy he'd gotten from Vergere... he had thought that was something she had projected, something she had done.
But what if it wasn’t?
--New Jedi Order: Traitor
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I recommend you read Traitor if you haven't already, as it addresses this rather nicely. To be completely severed from the Force is indeed to die; the Force is life, therefore life can't exist without the Force. Lliving beings who have been force-severed still possess some sort of connection to it, just on a lower frequency.
KOTOR 2 is in fact 2 years post "New Jedi Order: Traitor".
It actually retcons a few things, even in my mind, certain aspects of the Vong. But that last part aside, it does indeed retcon the idea that a being can exist outside of the Force, disconnected from the Force, as a dead spot, a blank, a hole in the Force as we see with Nihilus and Meetra - and not die.
I'm not so convinced. The Exile's situation doesn't strike me as incompatible with Traitor's descriptions at all; while she's described by other Force users as a dead spot in the Force (much like the Vong,) she's still alive and is still able to form connections to others through the Force, not at all unlike Jacen. The only inconsistent themes would come from Traya's take on the matter, which could well be mistaken.
Although, I could be missing something; I can't claim to be an expert on KOTOR II, as my distaste for it has quelled my interest in actually playing through a half-finished game to better understand it.
