Darth Nihilus vs Darth Sidious

@Miko Hacksaw - I don't have time to respond to all of that and this is enough of a mess already. It'd be safe to say that my stance on the outcome of the fight itself is aligned with Temp's here.

The main thing regarding our personal discussion is that his hunger is dark side oriented. It's confirmed by the Onderonians to be an echo in the Force (not just casting echoes in the Force), and the Prima Guide confirms that he uses "only the dark side". I did mention this in a prior post that you didn't respond to, but I'll say it again: those quotes prove beyond doubt that his hunger is in no way independent of the Force. It isn't a separate or external source of power; it's a subset of the Force itself.

The fact that his hunger is sated or fueled by the Force doesn't establish it as separate from the Force altogether. Indeed, things that damage or drain the Force, or are powered by it, have historically included acts of the Force or Force powers themselves. From where I'm standing, his hunger is the "Force Drain" that I call it, but also doubles as his condition. How can the Force influence someone who's a Wound in the Force? The same way you proposed that Kreia and the Exile regained their connections to the Force upon meeting despite both being cut off from the Force and one being a Wound in the Force.

To reiterate, his hunger is a dark side condition/dark side Force power, not a separate source of power from the Force altogether. Your use of this quote:

Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor.

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Is taken completely out of context, I'm afraid. The KotORCG itself uses "the dark side" synonymously with "hunger" here, which only supports my point:

As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster.

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

And that's hardly the only quote to do so:

Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it.

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

The Prima Guide reiterates it as well. I think it's clear that "hunger" is really just a synonymous term for Nihilus' "dark side condition/power" (it's both). In reality, his hunger is really just the "Force Drain" that I and several others like to refer to; the thing is that it's not just a power but also doubles as a condition or disorder, if you will, and I'm sure you can understand why; the more he uses it, the more it takes over him. There's another quote that talks about how his hunger "drives him" to consume populations; that is yet more evidence in favour of my interpretation. And indeed, when you do the same thing as you kill the Jedi Masters in the DS storyline, Kreia explains that this power is of the dark side, not distinct from the Force in any way:

"It is something the Sith, the assassins that stalk us, can do- it is of the dark side, the ability to feed on life, the Force, the closer one comes to it. It makes them stronger - for a time."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

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Nihilus has been thoroughly established as a dark sider, someone who wields dark side power, someone with a connection to the dark side, and someone corrupted by the dark side. That fills the criteria for him to fall under Palpatine's quotes (since we know him to be a Sith Lord). In that case, Palpatine is indeed more powerful, and Temp's case indeed continues to hold credence.

Nihilus' Push takes a lot out of her... is that why she's still conscious and able to use the Force, yet can't even raise a lightsaber hilt from the ground on a colossal geyser of dark side energies? I mean, could you even cite a similar example in the mythos? Not that it'd make a difference considering that Traya reflects that she was stripped of her powers in the same scene and Nihilus has been stated as draining her powers twice by the KotORCG.

So the fact that she was still conscious means that her ability to summon the Force couldn't have been substantially diminished? I don't need similar examples from the mythos, the fact is that she was an old lady who had been violently lifted off her feat and thrown into a wall, it's entirely plausible that she would have suffered some brain damage and lacked the ability to summon the concentration required to effectively use the Force in that instance, nevermind how concentrated the Force energies around her were. And as said she wouldn't have necessarily been talking about her Force power.

But now I see that the KOTORCG does indeed say as much, but quite frankly I question whether the KOTORCG knows what the hell it's talking about at this point, but we can table that discussion until I've replayed the game.

Uhh.. no, you weren't. You were talking about Force Bonds. That has nothing to do with what Odan-Urr attempted on Exar Kun.

...I was talking about how you had said that Odan-Urr's attempt to sever the Force from Exar Kun had set a precedent for how a Force Bond drain would work.

When you act, you cast echoes. Your intent is mirrored in others - your bond, in many ways, is predatory, an expression of dominance. It is your right.

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The stronger your connection to life, to the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made - and the stronger they are felt. When heard, Force Sensitives instinctively seek out the source, are drawn to it, to try and form a connection. And when the connection is formed, both become stronger. And the influence between them grows.

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

1. These quotes establish that the Exile casts echoes when she acts, and that the stronger your connection to life/the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made. This doesn't mean that everyone casts echoes when they act, or that the strength of these echoes is solely determined by how strong one's connection to the Force/life is.

2. I was talking about who was more dominant in influencing a Force Bond once it had been made. Traya mentions that the Exile instinctively knows how to manipulate such Bonds, implying that there is an element of natural proficiency involved.

Again, not any other way of going about it, so don't even bother to propose alternative explanations.

These comments are both inaccurate and really unhelpful. The way we develop our collective understanding is by having an open dialogue. Silencing discussion gets us nowhere.

Sure I have a coherent definition for power — Force power.

It was actually a coherent definition for Force power that I wanted, which I'm not entirely sure you have at the minute. I'm not saying that as an insult btw, I would wager that most people don't.

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

-- The New Essential Chronology

When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style.

-- Jedi Battles

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Any chance someone like Neph wants to explain how these quotes don't establish his position? I have no interest in getting into these kinds of debates anymore.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
the fact is that she was an old lady who had been violently lifted off her feat and thrown into a wall, it's entirely plausible that she would have suffered some brain damage

Whatever I'll just address them very briefly:

1. In-universe.
2. Not saying most powerful ever.
3. Stuff from magazines of questionable canonicity (aside from short stories).
4. Most sensible reading of this quote being that it's from Vader's perspective.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
3. Stuff from magazines of questionable canonicity (aside from short stories).

The official and licensed Star Wars magazine is now an invalid source?

He's trolling.

Every source that doesn't have Legend's semen on it is invalid.

Originally posted by MythLord
He's trolling.

I see.

The official and licensed Star Wars magazine is now an invalid source?

It's more that it has no functional canon role at all. It's a magazine for fans, it includes a range of stuff from interviews to concept art to behind the scenes stuff etc. It's not canon-conditional at all (except for as I said stuff like short stories which are valid sources).

Originally posted by MythLord
He's trolling.

Reported for your lies.

For the record Temp I wouldn't say that I'm as opposed to Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever as I once was. It's clear that both Nihilus and he possess near godlike abilities (and my question regarding the Force Storm at the beginning of this thread went unanswered). But presenting quotes and simply claiming that they settle the matter without ever going beyond a surface level examination of them is not a particularly smart way of doing things and is something I'll always disagree with.

?
"Once was?"
Do I know you?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
It's more that it has no functional canon role at all. It's a magazine for fans, it includes a range of stuff from interviews to concept art to behind the scenes stuff etc. It's not canon-conditional at all (except for as I said stuff like short stories which are valid sources).

Pretty sure everything about Star Wars is "for the fans," from films to books to video games. It's the official and licensed Star Wars magazine. The fact that it is replete with out of universe information only strengthens those instances when facts are relayed - it's not from an in-universe fallible character. 👍

Yes no maybe?

My point was that a magazine is generally not a storytelling medium, but something that celebrates the fandom and franchise beyond the stories that are released.

Do you have a source that states that comments made from within the confines of such things should be included as part of the Legends canon?

Oh, hi Neb.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Yes no maybe?

My point was that a magazine is generally not a storytelling medium, but something that celebrates the fandom and franchise beyond the stories that are released.

Do you have a source that states that comments made from within the confines of such things should be included as part of the Legends canon?

These aren't mutually exclusive. It's licensed and marketed as the official Star Wars magazine. Since its inception, Insider has and continues to include actual stories.

I'm more inclined to side with an officially licensed source designed to tell stories and inform fans about various aspects of Star Wars than your suggestion that we dismiss the information because it's "for fans." 😬

I can confirm that it is untrue that I am definitely someone who excels at not being the same person as someone that is not known by any name other than "Neb".

Since its inception, Insider has and continues to include actual stories.

Ok and these I acknowledge as being canon. The rest of the magazine however is a different matter.

Do you agree that aside from the short stories the magazine does not function as a storytelling medium?

than your suggestion that we dismiss the information because it's "for fans."

That's hardly what I'm doing. 😐

BTW provided you respond SunRazer, it'll probably be difficult for me to get back to you for the rest of this week but I will get back to you at some point afterwards.

Is this Nebaris? Interesting. Thought you were someone else who had a history of commenting on things that he knew nothing about, so I'll retract those comments. My apologies. 🙂

I'll respond to the rest later.

I'll try and use some less specific points to put this match up in perspective.

Firstly, everyone here obviously knows the established fact that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to have existed.

Now, let's have a quick look at Valkorion/Vitiate. This guy was over a thousand years old, and spent that time studying lore and ways to increase his powers. When he was backstabbed by Arcann he didn't even die, he just lost his host body. On Ziost he wiped out the entire planet, single-handedly draining it of the force and it's inhabitants.

All of this and even Valkorion wasn't as powerful as Sidious. Even with similar feats (yet more advanced) such as draining planets and existing without a physical form, Sidious remains the greatest Sith Lord in galactic history.

And even Valkorian couldn't possess the mind of the outlander, but there weren't many others who could resist him turning their body into a host. This guy could have multiple bodies. Couldn't he just force drain the outlander? No.

Using this same logic, Nihilus could not just drain Sidious, as Sidious had so much more knowledge, having read insane amounts of Jedi/Sith lore/holocrons.

Let's not forget that Sidious force drained Byss slowly to increase his own power, so he has knowledge of force drain.

This coupled with the 100% hands down fact that he is the greatest Sith Lord to have existed means that we can logically deduce that Sidious would be able to effectively counter anything Nihilus throws at him.

Hope this helps the debate 🙂

Originally posted by samappo
I'll try and use some less specific points to put this match up in perspective.

Firstly, everyone here obviously knows the established fact that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to have existed.

Now, let's have a quick look at Valkorion/Vitiate. This guy was over a thousand years old, and spent that time studying lore and ways to increase his powers. When he was backstabbed by Arcann he didn't even die, he just lost his host body. On Ziost he wiped out the entire planet, single-handedly draining it of the force and it's inhabitants.

All of this and even Valkorion wasn't as powerful as Sidious. Even with similar feats (yet more advanced) such as draining planets and existing without a physical form, Sidious remains the greatest Sith Lord in galactic history.

And even Valkorian couldn't possess the mind of the outlander, but there weren't many others who could resist him turning their body into a host. This guy could have multiple bodies. Couldn't he just force drain the outlander? No.

Using this same logic, Nihilus could not just drain Sidious, as Sidious had so much more knowledge, having read insane amounts of Jedi/Sith lore/holocrons.

Let's not forget that Sidious force drained Byss slowly to increase his own power, so he has knowledge of force drain.

This coupled with the 100% hands down fact that he is the greatest Sith Lord to have existed means that we can logically deduce that Sidious would be able to effectively counter anything Nihilus throws at him.

Hope this helps the debate 🙂 [/B]

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
So the fact that she was still conscious means that her ability to summon the Force couldn't have been substantially diminished? I don't need similar examples from the mythos, the fact is that she was an old lady who had been violently lifted off her feat and thrown into a wall, it's entirely plausible that she would have suffered some brain damage and lacked the ability to summon the concentration required to effectively use the Force in that instance, nevermind how concentrated the Force energies around her were. And as said she wouldn't have necessarily been talking about her Force power. But now I see that the KOTORCG does indeed say as much, but quite frankly I question whether the KOTORCG knows what the hell it's talking about at this point, but we can table that discussion until I've replayed the game.

Well, the telekinesis in of itself isn't exactly unprecedented; plenty of characters have been hurled into walls with enough force to jar lightsabers out of their hands. In no way does that indicate anything, really.

As for the brain damage, I'll assume you're joking. If not, provide proof. I'm not going off "plausibilities" (it's not plausible, by the way, given her ability to withstand devastating ship crashes without any real damage). Your case has literally no legs to stand on unless you have proof.

Where does she say she wasn't necessarily referring to Force power? "Stripped of power" and similar phrases are mentioned repeatedly in the game, and each time they refer to being stripped of Force power.

Ultimately, however, this comes down entirely to speculative alternatives on your part which are devoid of evidence, which can be contrasted to the fact that I have multiple quotes supporting my claims.

...I was talking about how you had said that Odan-Urr's attempt to sever the Force from Exar Kun had set a precedent for how a Force Bond drain would work.

I said Sever Force sets a precedent for how the severing of one's Force connection should work, and as of yet, I haven't received evidence to the contrary.

1. These quotes establish that the Exile casts echoes when she acts, and that the stronger your connection to life/the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made. This doesn't mean that everyone casts echoes when they act, or that the strength of these echoes is solely determined by how strong one's connection to the Force/life is.

2. I was talking about who was more dominant in influencing a Force Bond once it had been made. Traya mentions that the Exile instinctively knows how to manipulate such Bonds, implying that there is an element of natural proficiency involved.

The Exile's instinctive ability in manipulating bonds is definitely a factor, but Traya notes that the actual mirroring of intents is a result of the Exile casting echoes as a result of her actions. We know these echoes are stronger if you're stronger in the Force. She then refers to the stronger one as being the predator in the relationship.

Still not seeing any basis for Nihilus' Drain working on Sidious here.

It was actually a coherent definition for Force power that I wanted, which I'm not entirely sure you have at the minute. I'm not saying that as an insult btw, I would wager that most people don't.

The amount of Force-derived power that they can summon and control? I mean, I think a general definition in of itself should suffice, especially considering that several of Palpatine's supremacy quotes are directly prefaced with talk about the fury of the dark side and what not.

1. In-universe.
2. Not saying most powerful ever.
3. Stuff from magazines of questionable canonicity (aside from short stories).
4. Most sensible reading of this quote being that it's from Vader's perspective.

1. Which only means it's fallible, not that it's in error. Given the copious amount of quotes that reiterate the same point, I don't think the fallibility of any one quote in question would matter in the slightest.
2. Well, it could be.
3. On what grounds is its canonicity questionable? Cherry-picking what's canonical from it or not demands some sort of proof on your end. It's official and licensed, containing information from authors, producers, developers etc., and this here suggests that it was canon to the old EU: http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2014/06/star-wars-insider-fiction-part-of.html
4. Not necessarily. And if so, as with point one, that proves its fallibility, not that its in error.

Here's some more:

Meet Darth Sidious - the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

-- Darth Maul: Sith Apprentice

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

-- The Dark Side Sourcebook

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

-- Dark Empire Endnotes

As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor: "The ability to destroy a planet - or even a whole system - is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

-- Dark Empire Endnotes

Emperor Zaarin? The idea isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Demetrius Zaarin gambled everything on an audacious coup d'état and nearly killed the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known.

-- Insider #66: Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

-- Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1