I mean canon in terms of the old EU continuity which is now Legends. KotOR II itself is Legends — obviously we can't have a discussion involving only Disney Canon.
Game mechanics aren't canon unless they're part of the storyline. This so-called dark healing is never defined in the story.
And I gave you a link. It's supposed to be Drain Force, but it's shown as Drain Life in-game.
Originally posted by MythLord
So the Force is just fuel for this energy/power, is what you're saying? You do realize that's every goddamn ability in Star Wars, right? From telekinesis, to telepathy, to pretty much 99% of powers that exist in the SW mythos are all derived and fueled by the Force.Nihilus also uses it as fuel, hence it's a Force power, not some random deviant power that doesn't even exist.
You're thinking fuels as in electricity going into a light bulb, or an electric toy car running off a batter, which is wrong.
I'm talking Nuclear material in a Nuclear reactor. Alone it produces a form of energy, but when taken through the process of fission, produces another form of energy (heat) which in turn produces another (electricity). Taking a certain energy source, and changing it to another to power an object. THAT is the fueling that occurs.
This is why the hunger must be fueled constantly as more Force Energy is consumed and turned into this power source.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean canon in terms of the old EU continuity which is now Legends. KotOR II itself is Legends — obviously we can't have a discussion involving only Disney Canon.Game mechanics aren't canon unless they're part of the storyline. This so-called dark healing is never defined in the story.
Dark Healing was defined before the game ever came into existence. What else are we going to disqualify as game mechanics that is not explained in the story line? Force Stasis? Visions? Dark Rage? Ionize (disrupt droid, etc.)? This seems like a bogus position.
And I gave you a link. It's supposed to be Drain Force, but it's shown as Drain Life in-game. [/B]
Yeah, its the one off example. Per the guides, Drain Force (as I linked) does use life energy to fuel Force power, though no physical harm is done to the target. This is also the case with the same power under the name "Drain Life Essence" (Force Powers for Star Wars pg. 29) Which seems to be the case here.
Seems like it is the exception, or rushed error.
Stasis, Ionize, Vision and Dark Rage are all explored within storylines outside of KotOR II. They're all canon (to Legends) powers. To my knowledge, there is no canon power called Dark Healing. The definitions you gave are basically what Drain Life and Death Field are, and those two are canonical powers.
And it's not a bogus position; it's a statement from Leland Chee.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Stasis, Ionize, Vision and Dark Rage are all explored within storylines outside of KotOR II. They're all canon powers. To my knowledge, there is no canon power called Dark Healing. The definitions you gave are basically what Drain Life and Death Field are, and those two are canonical powers.And it's not a bogus position; it's a statement from Leland Chee.
Per Leland Chee:
"Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction." https://web.archive.org/web/20080918123928/http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=552
So per Leland, its perfectly acceptable to look at the RPG stat "Dark Healing" and see that the character has that.
Can we call this one solved?
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Its not a fan theory if it has quotes to back it, which I showed. Yes the direct force technique he uses (the direct attack form) is indeed a Sith Technique. It can be used by such as Vitiate/Valkorian WITHOUT the hunger aspect, and in doing so it has to be fueled by Force Energy directly as we saw with the Sith Lords and their assistance in powering the ritual.As a demonstration of the power in metabolizing Force Energy, we see Nihilus drain people on Malachor V with his unique Force consuming passive, learn to direct it as an attack while studying under Traya, and then use that power to raise his ship from Malachor V. AND THEN devour his first planet with no additional assistance from others. The metabolizing of Force Energy into his Hunger yields great amounts of power.
Vitiate became so powerful that he devastated planet Ziost with his own raw power. I believe that this is the application that Darth Traya was talking about.
Keep in mind that Vitiate also felt hunger and the need to satiate it since Nathema experiment. He also siphoned energy of his subjects non-stop for a period of long time. However, as his CONTROL abilities improved, his capability to control that hunger as well.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
That's really low balling Kreia. These qualities show her to be an expert on the subject:a.) She learned the dynamics of the ability from a technical aspect. She was able to instruct Nihilus how to take his drain from a passive aura to a world consuming ability by learning of it from the texts in the Trayus academy.
-So she understands it both as a student, and as an instructor, and has knowledge that even the PC doesn't have concerning the dynamics of the ability.b.) She was a victim of the ability which shows she understands the effects from the empirical victim perspective.
-This allows her to understand what she felt, how it felt, and what did or didn't seem to work when she attempted to resist it (as shown in the cut scene where she braces herself).c.) She was the agressor with the ability that used it on others.
-This allows her to understand what the ability is capable of from the view of one that deploys the skill.She has all three components to expertise on the subject. So please stop trying to sell her as an old woman weaving old wives tales. 😆
I'm well aware of all that and I don't dispute the fact that Kreia is an expert. I claimed that she was fallible and prone to wax poetic. These facts are not mutually exclusive.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
More overall knowledgeable, sure.
And more powerful. The lore is very explicitly clear on this.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
I don't disagree there. What you appear to be missing in this equation (and I may be wrong about your knowledge of Nihilus) is that Nihilus is primarily using a different power source which is an anti-Force mechanism. This is why there is no defense against it. This Hunger Power is fueled by the Force, so attempting to deploy a Force Based power like a resistance of some sort is akin to putting up a wall of liquid oxygen and trying to defend against a blowtorch. In fact, I've only read a page over from this and it seems like more people are missing this than should be.
The last few pages have consisted entirely of you and the others wading arduously through the shitheap that is KOTOR2's incoherent cosmology. Obviously this makes defending Nihilus very difficult.
Nihilus's power derives from an ancient dark side technique. He's never been shown to wield that technique effectively against a prepared adversary (Kreia was usurped with Sion by his side, Katarr was the very definition of a sneak attack, and the Exile and company were immobilized by a different power first), let alone one who is factually stronger and more knowledgeable than he is. Again, until you can prove that Nihilus possesses the means to circumvent the Emperor's colossal advantages - greater power, greater skill, greater knowledge, etc. - there's really no argument to be had.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
You're thinking fuels as in electricity going into a light bulb, or an electric toy car running off a batter, which is wrong.I'm talking Nuclear material in a Nuclear reactor. Alone it produces a form of energy, but when taken through the process of fission, produces another form of energy (heat) which in turn produces another (electricity). Taking a certain energy source, and changing it to another to power an object. THAT is the fueling that occurs.
This is why the hunger must be fueled constantly as more Force Energy is consumed and turned into this power source.
That, however, makes no sense. There's a reason why his power is called Force Drain. There's no mention of any cosmic power or energy that can be exploited in such a way in the entire Star Wars mythos other than the Force and the anti-Force, but the anti-Force is from another, parallel universe.
I doubt Avellone just decided to make up a new sort of mystical energy out of nowhere for Nihilus.
It's off-panel. We don't see it, but we can clearly see Traya's Force connection being ****ed with given that she couldn't even call her lightsaber to her hand on a colossal geyser of dark side energies. Refer to my quotes on the last page from KotORCG confirming that Nihilus drained her powers. And Traya claims to be stripped of her powers in the video.
Isn't it possible that the force push took a lot out of her, and that it was her power as a Sith leader that was stripped from her? Where's the quote from KOTORCG confirming that she was drained of her powers (I couldn't find it in this thread)?
You're contradicting Neph here. All of K2 Drain is accomplished through establishing a Force Bond with the target, according to him. So you're either arguing with him or against him.
Huh? I was talking about Odan-Urr's attempt on Exar Kun.
The one who is stronger in the Force would be the "dominant" one, as Kreia claims.
Quote?
No idea what you're talking about. Sources repeatedly make it known that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history; most of these come from after Nihilus' appearance in KotOR II. How is that not established?As for how their power could be compared — by the accolades, perhaps? Which establish Sidious as the supreme Sith Lord. As we know, feats-only comparisons are fraught with problems but it could well be established that the Emperor is the more powerful of the two through showings as well. But given the highly circumstantial nature of most of Nihilus' feats, I'm disinclined to opt for that route.
It's a well-established fact that Palpatine is more powerful than Nihilus. I haven't silenced discussion; those numerous sourcebooks have. That is the truth; at the moment you're not seeking the truth but rather searching for nonexistent avenues to deny the truth.
The problem is you're simple claiming that it's been established without presenting the quotes and explaining how what you're claiming has been established.
And I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at. What I'm asking is whether you even have a coherent definition for power in mind, and if so, what that is.
Originally posted by MythLord
That, however, makes no sense. There's a reason why his power is called Force Drain.
It is? Where?
There's no mention of any cosmic power or energy that can be exploited in such a way in the entire Star Wars mythos other than the Force and the anti-Force, but the anti-Force is from another, parallel universe.
I doubt Avellone just decided to make up a new sort of mystical energy out of nowhere for Nihilus.
Avellone's philosophical shtick for KOTOR 2 was a galaxy without the Force, people being left alone by some grand power:
"I basically hate the idea of the Force in Star Wars. And I'm not talking about Midichlorians, and I'm not talking about the speech that Yoda gives in Empire Strikes Back which I believe is beautiful. What I hate, well, what I hated about the force was the fact that it was this predestination power that ultimately goverened all the Jedi and Sith movements, drove them to massacre each other, change the face of the galaxy, all of it felt so very predetermined that giving yourself over to this higher power and this higher force seemed to be a way of just giving up your individuality as a character. And that was a very easy concept for me to hate."
-Chris Avellone
So he writes a teacher who understands the betrayal of the Force on all living things, and makes it her mission to destroy the Force in the Galaxy so that people can live free from its influence. He creates a character (Nihilus) who feeds off the Force leaving holes in the Force where it does not exist. This same character has a planet sized aura that is a dead spot in the Force where it cannot travel. His ultimate goal and vision was a galaxy devoid of the Force where the Force does not exist.
In your reasoning you act like a power that feeds on the Force (destroying it) and creates power from that like hypermatter reactors is going to use the same power he uncontrollably wants to consume. I can't quite agree with that as it goes against his (Nihilus'😉 dynamic, his purpose, and his character.
Originally posted by Geistalt
They do that through the Force, you know.Whatever. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't care to change their opinion.
Let us all know when you realize Force Drain's just another Force power.
I'm still looking for your source that says Nihilus' drain is called Force Drain.
In all of the resources we have, these are the drain types from KOTOR 2 with simple summary:
Dark Healing
Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook, pg. 223
-Take HP from target dealing damage, add to self. If target resists, effect is nullified:
1.) Darth Traya
2.) Darth Nihilus
3.) Darth Sion
4.) Visas Marr
Improved Dark Healing
Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook, pg. 224
-Take HP from target dealing damage, add to self. If target resists or attack fails, do half damage and heal the reduced damage amount:
1.) Darth Nihilus
2.) Darth Sion
Dark Healing Field
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, pg. 40
-Take HP from up to 3 targets dealing damage, add to self. If target resists, damage is halved and caster is healed for the reduced damage amount:
1.) Darth Nihilus
2.) Darth Sion
Drain Force
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, pg. 40
-Take Force Power from target, add to self:
1.) Darth Nihilus
IN GAME of course, Meetra and any other Force User in your party can learn all of these forms. They all appear under different names with the exception of Drain Force.:
Dark Healing = Drain Life
Dark Healing Field = Death Field
Drain Force = Drain Force, Improved Drain Force, Master Drain Force
Though the Sith Assassins are described this way:
"They drain the Force from their targets to augment their own powers and expertly turn captives into Sith with a combination of torture, Sith poisons, and the dark-side-drenched masks they wear.
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, pg. 149
They are not listed as having ANY form of Drain, neither Drain Force OR Dark Healing. Nihilus' unique drain simply is not listed under the Assassins, Traya, or Nihilus who all have it.
So again, I'm wondering where you're getting the Force Drain = Nihilus drain resource?
Originally posted by Geistalt
And it would've been impossible for Kreia and the Exile to regain their connection to the Force.
I can understand your perspective, but of course, that's exactly what is stated as happening:
"Kreia's union with the Jedi Exile creates a vergence in the Force that reconnects them to the energy field surrounding all living things."
-SWKOTORCG pg. 140
"Together forging a telepathic link, they revitalize their Force connections."
-SWKOTORCG pg. 158
I'm not sure how it works exactly, I just believe it's the will of the Force.
Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
I can understand your perspective, but of course, that's exactly what is stated as happening:"Kreia's union with the Jedi Exile creates a vergence in the Force that reconnects them to the energy field surrounding all living things."
-SWKOTORCG pg. 140"Together forging a telepathic link, they revitalize their Force connections."
-SWKOTORCG pg. 158I'm not sure how it works exactly, I just believe it's the will of the Force.
Come to think of it, if Meetra is cut off from the Force, but can still obtain empowerment from people dying around her (she grows stronger when people die around her), then the only things going on during the attack on the Ebon Hawk / Harbinger, is people dying around her.
She of course, hungers as well, and so her hunger can be fueled. I can reason that she uses this power to connect to Kreia even while not connected to the Force itself. Through this power she is able to reconnect to the Force.
Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Isn't it possible that the force push took a lot out of her, and that it was her power as a Sith leader that was stripped from her?
I don't want to sound offensive, but have you even played KotOR II? Just stop embarrassing yourself with all these nonsensical "possibilities" or alternative explanations that make no sense whatsoever. Like, if you constantly need someone to provide you with quotes and explain context, just don't debate the thing.
Nihilus' Push takes a lot out of her... is that why she's still conscious and able to use the Force, yet can't even raise a lightsaber hilt from the ground on a colossal geyser of dark side energies? I mean, could you even cite a similar example in the mythos? Not that it'd make a difference considering that Traya reflects that she was stripped of her powers in the same scene and Nihilus has been stated as draining her powers twice by the KotORCG.
Where's the quote from KOTORCG confirming that she was drained of her powers (I couldn't find it in this thread)?
Lord, I just gave it you on the last page. It's this:
But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
And there's also:
Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross.-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Clear as day. I'm all for having alternative viewpoints and such on contentious issues, but something that's established as fact? No debate. So don't try to propose another alternative explanation again.
Huh? I was talking about Odan-Urr's attempt on Exar Kun.
Uhh.. no, you weren't. You were talking about Force Bonds. That has nothing to do with what Odan-Urr attempted on Exar Kun.
Quote?
Here:
When you act, you cast echoes. Your intent is mirrored in others - your bond, in many ways, is predatory, an expression of dominance. It is your right.-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
The stronger your connection to life, to the Force, the stronger these echoes can be made - and the stronger they are felt. When heard, Force Sensitives instinctively seek out the source, are drawn to it, to try and form a connection. And when the connection is formed, both become stronger. And the influence between them grows.-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Again, not any other way of going about it, so don't even bother to propose alternative explanations.
The problem is you're simple claiming that it's been established without presenting the quotes and explaining how what you're claiming has been established.And I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at. What I'm asking is whether you even have a coherent definition for power in mind, and if so, what that is.
Sure I have a coherent definition for power — Force power. Is it not universally known what Palpatine's quotes are? Or if you had doubts about them, it'd be far easier to search them up on my respect threads rather than waste my time. Obviously I'm obliged to show you the quotes, but once again, if you don't know what you're talking about, just avoid debating the topic. Being a devil's advocate doesn't work unless you know the topic in-depth.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of Palpatine's quotes of supremacy, but there's enough sample quotes here to prove my point. And whilst quotes of course have no expiry dates or statute of limitations, these quotes all come from after Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and Unseen, Unheard were published.
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.-- The New Essential Chronology
When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style.-- Jedi Battles
When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide