Defenders vs. Agents of SHIELD

Originally posted by tkitna
I don't remember them being all that impressive. I think May and Ward are the low characters on the totem pole here to be honest. Again, Daisy is the only one that I can see the Defenders having to worry about. They take her out and it should be over shortly after.

Both May and Ward take out fodder easier than s1 Daredevil. S1 Daredevil struggled with thugs that May/Ward would have bulldozed over. It wasn't till season 2 that DD truly upgraded his knockout power.

May also has feats of fighting against asgardian-enhanced thugs. Daisy has taken hits from Ghost Rider.

going with Shield only because they have actually teamed up as a team.. the defenders netflix show isn;t out yet to judge fully how well they act like a team...

Originally posted by FrothByte
Both May and Ward take out fodder easier than s1 Daredevil. S1 Daredevil struggled with thugs that May/Ward would have bulldozed over. It wasn't till season 2 that DD truly upgraded his knockout power.

May also has feats of fighting against asgardian-enhanced thugs. Daisy has taken hits from Ghost Rider.

Luckily the OP didn't make the thread with restrictions of DD only being from season 1. Season 2 DD was taking on bucket loads of Hand Ninjas. May and Ward aren't doing that.

What hits has Daisy taken from Ghost Rider? Do you mean the ones before he actually changed. The only hit she took was when she got floored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjNrIWaOY3E

Here's another interaction where Robby beat her down without even changing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tASXxpU7-DM

If she cant take them down with her powers, she's toast.

Originally posted by tkitna
Luckily the OP didn't make the thread with restrictions of DD only being from season 1. Season 2 DD was taking on bucket loads of Hand Ninjas. May and Ward aren't doing that.

What hits has Daisy taken from Ghost Rider? Do you mean the ones before he actually changed. The only hit she took was when she got floored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjNrIWaOY3E

Here's another interaction where Robby beat her down without even changing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tASXxpU7-DM

If she cant take them down with her powers, she's toast.

DD didn't get some kind of strength or power upgrade between S1 and S2, which leads us to believe his increase in KO power is due to his armored costume and weighted gauntlets. As stated in OP however, the h2h fight is done in street clothes, meaning he'll be performing closer to how he was in S1 which means both Ward and May have better feats of stomping fodder than DD has.

Ward and May both have numerous feats of taking out SHIELD/Hydra agents as well as inhumans. May has feats of going up against Asgardian enhanced humans. DD has no feats to match.

And I have to apologize to misremembering Daisy's fight against GR. Seems my memory is foggy with anything to do with GR at the moment. Let me pose her fight against LMD Mace instead as proof that Daisy (and by extension May and Ward) can go up against physically superior opponents. Something that DD has no feats to compare with.

So is Deathlok being used now instead of Mace?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So is Deathlok being used now instead of Mace?

He's an option. Feel free to use him instead of Mace.

Originally posted by FrothByte
DD didn't get some kind of strength or power upgrade between S1 and S2, which leads us to believe his increase in KO power is due to his armored costume and weighted gauntlets. As stated in OP however, the h2h fight is done in street clothes, meaning he'll be performing closer to how he was in S1 which means both Ward and May have better feats of stomping fodder than DD has.

I take it as he became a better fighter, but I can see your point too. I think about all the Hand Ninja's he stomped, but then again, I think about the staircase brawl and I can actually see May or Ward doing what he did there (been awhile since I've seen it though).

Just watched it again and I don't know now. One thing I noticed is DD is more of a brawler and not as fluid as May or Ward. Think they could get through that mess? Not saying they cant, just looking for your opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AvWkrppsg

Ward and May both have numerous feats of taking out SHIELD/Hydra agents as well as inhumans. May has feats of going up against Asgardian enhanced humans. DD has no feats to match.

May fighting Asgardians I cant remember. I'm sure its when Sif came to Earth, but I'd have to rewatch it.

And I have to apologize to misremembering Daisy's fight against GR. Seems my memory is foggy with anything to do with GR at the moment. Let me pose her fight against LMD Mace instead as proof that Daisy (and by extension May and Ward) can go up against physically superior opponents. Something that DD has no feats to compare with.

Yeah, DD hasent been pitted against any meta's so far so i'll have to give you that. Still haven't finished Iron Fist yet (ep. 10), but he appears to be a better fighter and harder to handle than Matt.

I don't know. I still think Daisy is the key for Shield to win though. She's going to have to take out Cage if they want a chance.

Originally posted by FrothByte
DD didn't get some kind of strength or power upgrade between S1 and S2, which leads us to believe his increase in KO power is due to his armored costume and weighted gauntlets.

You can't really claim this for sure. For all we know, he has been hitting the gym more and improved his strength. Or it's an improvement in his actual skill and technique, as someone else has mentioned. We know he's been very active since he started. To assume he just stayed on the exact same level in terms of ability despite all the activity is rather flawed IMO. When he and Elektra snuck into that one building in S2, and battled the Yakuza guys, he had no suit or gauntlets with him, and took those guys out with much more ease than he did in S1. Even one-shotted one of the guy who they were looking for's personal bodyguard. During his fight with the Dogs of Hell, he actually kicked a guy hard enough to send him flying the length of the stairwell and, during his final fight with Nobu, he used his billy club to one arm flick him a good distance over that railing. His feats suggest an overall improvement in strength. Not just striking power. Which can easily be explained by him just training harder.

It would also hardly be the first power creep that has happened in Marvel. Cap went from struggling to bend metal railings in TFA to holding down helicopters in CW. Luke Cage went from actually being staggered backwards from muscular human hits, in JJ, to people breaking their arms trying to hit him full force in his own show. The notion that Daredevil became a better fighter and got a bit stronger is hardly out there in comparison.

Very interesting thread. I would like to go with Defenders but we don't know how good of a team they are.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You can't really claim this for sure. For all we know, he has been hitting the gym more and improved his strength. Or it's an improvement in his actual skill and technique, as someone else has mentioned. We know he's been very active since he started. To assume he just stayed on the exact same level in terms of ability despite all the activity is rather flawed IMO. When he and Elektra snuck into that one building in S2, and battled the Yakuza guys, he had no suit or gauntlets with him, and took those guys out with much more ease than he did in S1. Even one-shotted one of the guy who they were looking for's personal bodyguard. During his fight with the Dogs of Hell, he actually kicked a guy hard enough to send him flying the length of the stairwell and, during his final fight with Nobu, he used his billy club to one arm flick him a good distance over that railing. His feats suggest an overall improvement in strength. Not just striking power. Which can easily be explained by him just training harder.

It would also hardly be the first power creep that has happened in Marvel. Cap went from struggling to bend metal railings in TFA to holding down helicopters in CW. Luke Cage went from actually being staggered backwards from muscular human hits, in JJ, to people breaking their arms trying to hit him full force in his own show. The notion that Daredevil became a better fighter and got a bit stronger is hardly out there in comparison.

Ok fair enough. To me Cap's improvement was a bit gradual so I attributed it as power creep whereas DD's improvement was much more instantaneous. But your point on Cage is valid, so I'll concede to a power creep. Seems like it's bound to happen anyway (unless your name is Oliver Queen, and you instead de-creep).

Anyway, I'm still sticking to my main point that May and Ward are at the very least around DD's level . I've gotten far enough into Ironfist that I now consider Rand a notch above them in skill and offensive output but a bit lower on the durability scale.

Originally posted by tkitna
I take it as he became a better fighter, but I can see your point too. I think about all the Hand Ninja's he stomped, but then again, I think about the staircase brawl and I can actually see May or Ward doing what he did there (been awhile since I've seen it though).

Just watched it again and I don't know now. One thing I noticed is DD is more of a brawler and not as fluid as May or Ward. Think they could get through that mess? Not saying they cant, just looking for your opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AvWkrppsg

May fighting Asgardians I cant remember. I'm sure its when Sif came to Earth, but I'd have to rewatch it.

Yeah, DD hasent been pitted against any meta's so far so i'll have to give you that. Still haven't finished Iron Fist yet (ep. 10), but he appears to be a better fighter and harder to handle than Matt.

I don't know. I still think Daisy is the key for Shield to win though. She's going to have to take out Cage if they want a chance.

May didn't fight actual Asgardians per se, but humans who find an Asgardian berserker staff that granted them Asgardian physical strength. Tried to find a youtube vid but was harder than I expected. IIRC, she eventually got hold of the staff in the end and beat them by using it's powers, but for a bit she was able to keep up with them despite their enhanced physicality.

There are other examples as well, like when she tried to detain Creel. But anyway, my point is not to say they can easily beat DD. Just that May, Ward, DD and Ironfist are all good enough to keep each other busy for quite a while.

I think in the end, the winner of the fight will depend on who matches up with who. For example, Defenders can win if they set Cage against Ward and May, because those 2 can't really take out Cage. Get IF to dance around Mace and hopefully knock him out with enough iron fisting. Then have JJ and DD tag team Daisy. If they can beat her great. If not, at least last long enough for IF to join the fray.

Or, AoS can win with a matchup like this:

Set Daisy on Luke Cage. Cage isn't fast enough to dodge her blasts, and with unlimited blasts she can keep him off his feat indefinitely. Plus what the shotgun blast taught us is that Cage's brain isn't as tough as the rest of him, so Daisy could theoretically pulp his brain with enough shockwaves.

Get Mace to match JJ. I consider Mace to have better feats that JJ so I don't see JJ winning this match.

Then match Ward and May against IF and DD. IF will eventually defeat whoever he's matched with but they should be able to keep him occupied long enough for the 2 big AoS guns to finish with their respective fights.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok fair enough. To me Cap's improvement was a bit gradual so I attributed it as power creep whereas DD's improvement was much more instantaneous. But your point on Cage is valid, so I'll concede to a power creep. Seems like it's bound to happen anyway (unless your name is Oliver Queen, and you instead de-creep).

Oliver is more like a yoyo-creep. He's become a lot like the Flash in recent times. His fighting capabilities fluctuate depending on the progress of the plot at any given point. In the same episode, he goes from fighting China White, Liza Warner and Cupid simultaneously and doing well, to having his hands full with China White alone later on.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Anyway, I'm still sticking to my main point that May and Ward are at the very least around DD's level . I've gotten far enough into Ironfist that I now consider Rand a notch above them in skill and offensive output but a bit lower on the durability scale.

I feel the same, which is why I said that I felt the overall skill levels of the two teams were pretty close, in my initial post. And yeah, Danny seems to have the most skill, the Iron Fist gives him a huge striking advantage, and he seems better at avoiding getting hit in return. But when he does get hit, he doesn't seem to handle it as well as the others. Blows that May, Ward, DD and even Daisy might shrug off seem to have a greater effect on him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Set Daisy on Luke Cage. Cage isn't fast enough to dodge her blasts, and with unlimited blasts she can keep him off his feat indefinitely. Plus what the shotgun blast taught us is that Cage's brain isn't as tough as the rest of him, so Daisy could theoretically pulp his brain with enough shockwaves.

The shotgun is highly inconsistent with his overall durability feats though. Beyond the other showings, when Cage fought Diamondback, Diamondback kneed him right under the chin (same spot as the shotgun) with enough force to send him flying over a dozen feet through the air and land on top of an SUV. And all it did was it stun/daze him a bit. But as I pointed out previously, based on feats, he got a power creep in between shows.

However, I still think Daisy could hurt him. In her fight with that Russian villain guy (I forget his name), a quick blast from her knocked out a thick concrete pillar and caused a large chunk of the ceiling to collapse on him. A single blast won't do the job, but if she hits Luke with enough of them she could ruin his day.

I just finished Iron Fist and now I cant see Shield winning if Danny brings his A game. That punch that took out an entire floor of a skyscraper (not room, but floor) is so much above anything that any of the others characters can bring that its silly.