Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Winning doesn't always mean you're stronger
And clearly given what happened under normal circumstances and how the victory came about, oppress was weaker
Under “normal” circumstances (i.e. when PLO doesn’t have Clone Troopers as back up), it would just be an even harder beating.
I don't see how Jinn is so underrated. He's an 8. Gillard confirms that Maul/Dooku are 8, albeit two levels of 8. Jinn is probably just below Maul as an 8, but definitely clearly superior to any 7, which I think puts him above most of the lower council members.
Who could beat/contend with Qui-Gon in the Jedi Council? I think Jinn could take on any of the B-team and win in lightsabers [bar Mace]. He's the apprentice of Dooku and has sparred thousands of times with a Jedi who was matched only by Windu/Yoda. The duel with Maul has really caused Jinn to be seen as some weak old Jedi who can't fight. He beat Anoon Bondarra in sparring, Form IV against Form VII, that's highly impressive.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Kbro accepted that Savage > Plo.
"Context doesn't matter"
"Oppress cheapshotted better than Plo Koon did"
"The force makes force users immune to being distracted"
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
TPM Kenobi was close to Qui-Gon as a combatant. AOTC Kenobi was < Fisto. And Fisto was outperformed by Plo Koon when facing an inferior version of Ventress.
Nice, using the A > B > C Therefore A > C ? That's flawed logic.
TPM Kenobi isn't near Jinn as a combatant. Jinn is an 8, Kenobi is a 7 in both TPM AND AOTC. Fisto is also a 7. Jinn is automatically above both of them, and since the tier system increases exponentially, Jinn has a clear cut edge.
How is Fisto outperformed?
Originally posted by samappo
Nice, using the A > B > C Therefore A > C ? That's flawed logic.
Originally posted by samappo
TPM Kenobi isn't near Jinn as a combatant. Jinn is an 8, Kenobi is a 7 in both TPM AND AOTC. Fisto is also a 7. Jinn is automatically above both of them, and since the tier system increases exponentially, Jinn has a clear cut edge.
TPM Kenobi has been implied to be close to Jinn several times. (Greysetinel has quotes)
Originally posted by samappo
How is Fisto outperformed? [/B]
Both were injured. Though Fisto did admittedly have a style disadvantage.
Jinn isn't really a gimp force user either, just because he doesn't display feats [or doesn't have the chance to].
"I know that some of you have discussed Master Qui-Gon Jinn as a possible candidate. But I would counsel caution. Despite his mastery of the Force, he is headstrong and willful." - Windu
Source: Jedi Council: Acts of War 4
Just to add to his repotroire as a swordsman:
"Tahl's face was a mask. She had gone deep within herself, past her exhaustion to a place of sheer will. Qui-Gon had never felt so tired. His arm muscles shook. His legs felt watery. They trembled. Still he did not stop or make a mistake."
Source: Jedi Apprentice: The Death of Hope
Even when exhausted, Jinn doesn't make mistakes.
Or this:
"Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen."
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Or:
"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order." - TPM Novel
He's also a master of Makashi:
"Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy."
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
Yeah, Koon's hype is better. Koon scales off force users with the "best swordsmen in history thing" and additionally, unlike qui-gon, is hyped as one of the most powerful jedi in history.
Add superior forc ehype to superior force feats as well as the scaling Koon gets, and there really isn't much of a case for Qui-Gon here.
Force feats don't determine victors among Jedi unless the gap is vast. Lightsaber skills do. Unlike Plo, Qui Gon has been hyped as one of the best in history.
Fisto's defeat at Ventress's hands in Cestus Deception, is more and more looking like a scenario where circumstances played a bigger role. I mean, Obi Wan defeats Ventress in the novel, and Obi Wan as of then was made out to be inferior to Fisto. Fisto's foot injury, and his stylistic disadvantage against Ventress may have played significant roles in the fight.
If we consider that styles make fights, then Plo's Djem So would have an edge over Ventress's Makashi.
Please quote the "hype" that you keep hyping about.
@LordOfTheLight That's very true. Jinn is stated as being one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the entire order. He's a student of Dooku who has sparred in a thousand matches with his old master, and competed and matched a young Darth Maul who was even for that time considered one of the most trained Sith of all time. His age was his real downfall. I wonder why he didn't resort to Makashi to buy himself time until Obi-Wan could join him in the pit room.
I meant the statement itself. The one where he is stated to be one of the best swordsmen in history.
Though there are other forms of hype, as well. Qui Gon was the best padawan of his generation, like Obi Wan. Dooku in particular, regarded him very highly. And Jedi who are supposed to be the best in the order like Anoon Bondara, humbled themselves in front of Qui Gon.
Yeah. That, and the fact that the environment made it "incredibly" difficult for the Jedi.
Makashi would be even more vulnerable to Juyo than it is to Djem So. Juyo is the most aggressive and kinetic of all the 7 forms. Only Vaapad is more powerful, and it is basically Juyo extended and enhanced.
If your opponent is more skilled than you, Soresu would be the go-to option for buying time. Else you have to resort to aggression. I'd say Djem So would fare pretty well against Juyo, being the perfect mixture of offense and defense. Ataru is an aggressive form however, and Jedi in general are just not as aggressive as Sith. Ataru's defense is the weakest of all 7 forms. So, it is not a good combination for the Jedi, who will likely fall back due to being less aggressive, and then on, it's pretty much over. Of course, this is for comparably skilled opponents, which Qui Gon and Maul were.