Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Dooku, Darth Maul, and General Grievous

"First off the factors given in sod were clearly retconned in the actual tcw fight where the brothers took seperate sides of kenobi and never got in each othe's way."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

3:33 - 3:50.

Obi Wan isn't attacked simultaneously by both brothers at any point in the time listed above. While they are attacking him from from either side he manages to keep them both off balance and deal with them both by themselves here.

3:50 - 4:00

During this 10 seconds Obi Wan manages to fend off both Maul and Savage attacking him simultaneously. An impressive display to be sure but not one that indicates superior skill as Ventress has done the same with both Anakin and Kenobi.

4:24 - 4:36

Obi Wan is telekinetically dominated by Maul.

4:36 - 4:42

Obi Wan is able to saber lock both Maul and Savage for 6 seconds before weakening Savage's legs with several kicks and creating an opening wherein he can slice off his arm.

Immediately after Maul blasts him away.

Note, I never made claim that the brothers got in each other's way. Simply that the environment was favorable to Kenobi. Something made note of in Shadow Conspiracy.

"Second off, sod said nothing about kenobi being amped. That head canon came from people taking feloni's word out of context when in the same interview he denied the amplification being external. We also have multiple examples of kenobi focusing himslef at will, and his own statement he can do this."

IIRC Filoni claimed Gallia's death "focused" Kenobi. Mind giving me the vid and time stamp of Filoni stating the amp wasn't external?

"Kenobi had to use a secondary style which has been stated to be inferior to his use of soresu which would be a factor against him."

Common sense dictates that Kenobi would NOT have used the secondary style had it not proved more useful in the situation he found himself in making it a factor in favor of him.

"While it is indeed asinine to assert that kenobi can simultaneously deal with grevious(someone who is more skilled than both maul and oppress and has outdueled post season 5 kenobi)= and maul, its equally baseless to claim kenobi was amped or his performance here was circumstantial"

Not when we have statements asserting just that. If you're claim that Filoni commented the amp wasn't "external" is true I'll reconsider ( though even then, a focused mindset is definitely a boon in combat ).

You're missing the point. Shadow conspiracy has the enviroment being favorable to kenobi because...
A. them getting in each other's way and oppress hindering maul
B. The fight taking space in a cramped corridor for the duo because of the cramped space(which obviously isn't cramped as in the actual episode kenobi is able to fully execute the acrobatic movements of ataru) and the two of them not being able to fit in the corridor together(even though the episode has them taking both sides of kenobi and therefore not being unable to fit in the corridor.)

C. Yes he did briefly dominate kenobi(something which didn't change the outcome of the fight) while he was fighting oppress which is why kenobi isn't going to do well when he has grevious coming at him and kenobi having to focus his defense on him

As for Maul blasting kenobi, its noted both in starwars.com and sc that maul was desperate because of his brother's condition. You just have to reference ventress and oppress for an idea of how maul would be amped
D.
interviewer "so obi wan kenobi loses qui gon to darth maul and is suddenly just empowered to defeat him, obi wan loses adi galia and the same thing kinda happens. Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just(gets interrupted by feloni)

feloni: "not really, its alot of focus, and it speaks to being a hero, and kindness"

Additionally there's kenobi stating he can focus himself during combat in the jedi path and him using this ability multiple times in Labrynth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith

E. Kenobi's use of ataru was because he had to deal with two opponents simultaneously

The brothers were getting in each other's way and were surprised by Obi-Wan's sudden aggressiveness, IIRC. It's a feat mired in circumstances, and not capable of being treated as a perfectly valid feat; not least because Maul is depicted as Obi-Wan's rival on his own.

1. The brothers cannot possibly be getting in each other's way when they're taking opposite sides of kenobi at the start of the fight and attacking kenobi from opposite sides throughout the fight.

2. The whole kenobi caught the brothers off guard thing doesn't work because unlike in sc, the fight doesn't have kenobi immediately disarm oppress. The only circunmstances which ended up in the final episode from the unfinished script sc is was kenobi having an extra blade and you could argue maul and oppress having to take seperate sides,

3. Rivals don't have to be equals and maul has never ever been potrayed as an equal via the blade with tcw kenobi(which is made up for at least in part by maul constantly showing force based superiority albeit with circumstances), In season 4 a kenobi maul ambushed and beat up with the aid of his brother stil managed to outduel him with the fight only being a stalemate/ eventual maul victory per feloni due to the use of dun moch combined with the state of physical wreckage kenobi was put in beforehand. When they were actually fighting(and by that i mean clashing with each other's blades rather than kenobi running for narnia at thin air) kenobi outmanuvered maul and retrieved his saber, took him out of the fight twice(but didn't finish him off via ventress), drove maul back when enraged, and slammed his blade to the ground. All maul actually did in the saber duel was land a kick on kenobi and then a flurry of kicks kenobi instantly recovered from. A flurry of kicks maul landed as a desperate reaction to kenobi slamming maul's blade to the ground and leaving him defensless

Even in their brief 1 v 1 prior to the cave, the bout ended with kenobi landing a kick maul took about 6 seconds to get his head back up from.

TCW has made it clear that while tcw kenobi is the superior with the blade, tcw maul is more powerful which overall has them generally rivalling each other at this point.

As for oppress, his post season 3 potrayal has made clear that he's outclassed by both maul and kenobi as of their fight on florrum

I'm talking about Shadow Conspiracy's version of the fight, where this stuff is explicitly stated.

I know, but that was an incomplete script that was explicitly retconned by the episode in multiple ways. One of said ways being maul and oppress getting in each other's way even though in the actual episode they take opposite sides of kenobi right from the getgo

Not sure how the episode retcons the book when the book comes after.

Anyway regardless, on his own with one blade he isn't dealing with maul+grevious simultaneously. Kneobi would logically be way more susceptible dealing grevious to the kind of force attacks maul has repteadly used on a distracted kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how the episode retcons the book when the book comes after.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're missing the point. Shadow conspiracy has the enviroment being favorable to kenobi because...
A. them getting in each other's way and oppress hindering maul
B. The fight taking space in a cramped corridor for the duo because of the cramped space(which obviously isn't cramped as in the actual episode kenobi is able to fully execute the acrobatic movements of ataru) and the two of them not being able to fit in the corridor together(even though the episode has them taking both sides of kenobi and therefore not being unable to fit in the corridor.)

C. Yes he did briefly dominate kenobi(something which didn't change the outcome of the fight) while he was fighting oppress which is why kenobi isn't going to do well when he has grevious coming at him and kenobi having to focus his defense on him

As for Maul blasting kenobi, its noted both in starwars.com and sc that maul was desperate because of his brother's condition. You just have to reference ventress and oppress for an idea of how maul would be amped
D.
interviewer "so obi wan kenobi loses qui gon to darth maul and is suddenly just empowered to defeat him, obi wan loses adi galia and the same thing kinda happens. Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just(gets interrupted by feloni)

feloni: "not really, its alot of focus, and it speaks to being a hero, and kindness"

Additionally there's kenobi stating he can focus himself during combat in the jedi path and him using this ability multiple times in Labrynth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith

E. Kenobi's use of ataru was because he had to deal with two opponents simultaneously

[[You're missing the point. Shadow conspiracy has the enviroment being favorable to kenobi because...
A. them getting in each other's way and oppress hindering maul]]

That could simply be referring to the brother's positioning limiting both their movements even further as they cannot flank or jump over Kenobi. Even though I generally agree that visually it doesn't seem like it would all that limiting, if the novel states that to be an inhibiting factor then who am I to say it isn't?

[[B. The fight taking space in a cramped corridor for the duo because of the cramped space(which obviously isn't cramped as in the actual episode kenobi is able to fully execute the acrobatic movements of ataru) and the two of them not being able to fit in the corridor together(even though the episode has them taking both sides of kenobi and therefore not being unable to fit in the corridor.)]]

Even having enough space to extend two blades in either direction is still going to be more limiting then fighting in an open space and apparently the writers believed this to be a greater hindrance to the brother's then Kenobi ( I myself believe this doesn't make much sense since Kenobi is wielding Atartu, but again, who am I to question the creators of the show ). Also, the latter statement is likely referring to Savage and Maul not being able to assault him from one direction.

[[C. Yes he did briefly dominate kenobi(something which didn't change the outcome of the fight) while he was fighting oppress which is why kenobi isn't going to do well when he has grevious coming at him and kenobi having to focus his defense on him]]

I agree with you here.

D. interviewer "so obi wan kenobi loses qui gon to darth maul and is suddenly just empowered to defeat him, obi wan loses adi galia and the same thing kinda happens. Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just(gets interrupted by feloni)

feloni: "not really, its alot of focus, and it speaks to being a hero, and kindness"]]

Yep. Filoni confirms Adi's death puts Obi Wan in a focused state.

[[E. Kenobi's use of ataru was because he had to deal with two opponents simultaneously]]

Yes. It was obviously more viable then Soresu in that situation otherwise he would have used Soresu.

1. Which is fine(I've already acknowledged the duo may have been affected), but they obviously aren't getting in each other's way if they on opposithe sides of kenobi the entire fight so oppress would not be hindering maul

2. Which can be used to argue that the team was hindered, not either of the brothers individually. And this is still based on the sc version where the brothers don't take opposite sides of kenobi and do get in each other's way

3. Reread the statement. Feloni *denies* the focus coming from galia's death and instead attribute it to characteristics of kenobi meaning the amp was not external. Furthermore Kenobi has stated he can focus himself has focused himself at will numerous times. The amp isn't circumstantial, its something kenobi can and has done.

4, Yup

Nope. Watch the whole interview. Filoni states Kenobi comes to this fight focused (unlike the last one he lost in the previous episode), but then he becomes "even more" focused after Adi's death, because he feels he has to right that wrong.

So yeah he was fighting better than his usual best for the 2 v 1.

I did watch the whole interview. Nobody is disouting that kenobi became focused, but whats made clear by the quote i posted is that it wasn't external and kenobi focused himself. Something he has done vs grevious, anakin and in numerous combat situations and a ability in legends that he has stated he can do in combat and given a name to.

The "amp" wasn't circumstantial. Keneobi focused himself

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Which is fine(I've already acknowledged the duo may have been affected), but they obviously aren't getting in each other's way if they on opposithe sides of kenobi the entire fight so oppress would not be hindering maul

2. Which can be used to argue that the team was hindered, not either of the brothers individually. And this is still based on the sc version where the brothers don't take opposite sides of kenobi and do get in each other's way

3. Reread the statement. Feloni *denies* the focus coming from galia's death and instead attribute it to characteristics of kenobi meaning the amp was not external. Furthermore Kenobi has stated he can focus himself has focused himself at will numerous times. The amp isn't circumstantial, its something kenobi can and has done.

4, Yup

1. Not from the direction he's attacking from, no. But from the back and potentially the sides.

2. It comes out to be the same doesn't it? If they're hindered as a team or individually their overall combative effectiveness is still going to be hindered.

3. The focus is something that's derived specifically from Adi's death in the context of the interview. And while being "focused" might not have improved his ability to amp himself with the Force it would improve his combative effectiveness.

Nothing says the amp wasn't "external" by the way. Filoni just clarifies that situations like those tend to focus Kenobi because he's a "hero" rather then providing a notable amp.

Dude
"obi wan loses adi galia and the same thing kinda thing happens. Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just-"
"nah"

Feloni outright denies(and even interrupts the interviewer) that adi galia's death(the source of that sense of loss) empowered kenobi. If he isn't getting empowered externally, then obviously he's focusing himself. Obi wan needs to "right the wrong" so he makes the choice to focus himself. This is something kenobi has done multiple times at will and has stated he can do in the jedi path.

Kenobi "gains focus" because he focuses himself

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Not from the direction he's attacking from, no. But from the back and potentially the sides.

2. It comes out to be the same doesn't it? If they're hindered as a team or individually their overall combative effectiveness is still going to be hindered.

3. The focus is something that's derived specifically from Adi's death in the context of the interview. And while being "focused" might not have improved his ability to amp himself with the Force it would improve his combative effectiveness.

2. yup which is why you can't use this fight to for for grevious+maul

3. The quote has the interviewer ask if adi galia's death empowered kenobi and has feloni answering no. The amp did not come from adi galia's death. It came from kenobi's own reaction to it and decision to focus himself

1. I didn't say they got in each other's way. Only that their positioning may have hindered eachother's movements and potential lines of attack. Like I said, I agree with you that it wouldn't be all that significant of a factor but the novel deemed it great enough to make note of it.

2. How so?

3. He said "not really" in regards to Adi's death empowering him. He clarifies that it did focus him which would increase his combat effectiveness. I.E. he clarifies Obi Wan gains focus over an active amp which empowered him.

1. Which is speculation because what the novel made note off(them getting in each other's way) didn't actually happen(it was based on incomplete scripts).

2. Because there were factors favoring kenobi in terms of a group battle which was against a less skilled group

3. He said that kenobi "gained focus". He said nothing about the focus being external. In fact he says adi galia's death provoked kenobi to "right that wrong" which would suggest that it was kenobi's decision to focus himself and stop maul.

If adi galia's death didn't focus him, then the amp can't be externally based

1. Can you quote it for me?

2. Exactly! Which means the team performed as they did because of those circumstances. That's my point.

3. And he didn't saying anything about it NOT being external. If a combatant is more focused they're generally going to perform better. It may have given him the push he needed to enter that state of focus, yes.

It did focus him though. That's confirmed by Filoni. Why can't it be "externally" based?