"How Socialism Ruined My Country"

Originally posted by Foxsteak
That sounds a lot like ObamaCare but the issue with it is the insurance companies are simply too powerful and ObamaCare pulled money from the users which resulted in more problems.

It'll be a long day before the USA gets socialised medicine, and no state would even dare be the first to have it.

No that's nothing like Ocare really. There's no public option in Ocare. There was going to be but they didn't have the votes. You aren't wrong, though, insurance companies are too powerful and they were afraid of the public option because it would probably render their product obsolete by offering a cheaper alternative with little to no drawbacks for the customer.

Originally posted by snowdragon
This would have a much larger affect then you think. Since most health insurance is provided from employers, I could easily see how a majority of business owners would scrap their plans and tell everyone to join the pool.

In essence it would crush private insurance and the state would pick up most of the employed individuals for coverage.

I'm not sure how much competition would come into play........hmm streamline my business or continue to throw hundreds of hours at a business that has nothing to do with my day to day operations.

That's fine, if government run insurance is better and more effective then so be it. If the private insurance companies can't compete then they would simply shut down and cease to exist, which would be fine.

Originally posted by BackFire
That's fine, if government run insurance is better and more effective then so be it. If the private insurance companies can't compete then they would simply shut down and cease to exist, which would be fine.

I think it would be better for everyone if people weren't tied to their jobs because of health insurance and as I said I'm sure business owners would GLADLY pass off health benefits to the govt.

It would be a win/win just need someone to close that deal and make it happen, I'll go read Trumps art of the deal now ............

maybe we could limit a lot of the wasted money we drop into other countries, decriminalize drugs, stop spending money on adult illegal immigrants, tighten up welfare, and stop spending countless dollars irritating other sovereign nations then we would have more than enough money to give every American a stellar education and keep them healthy.

then. maybe then. we would have enough residual money to help out our poorer brethren in other countries.

isn't this common sense?

Originally posted by Firefly218
Why should it be a private thing? You don't think Government is capable of handling it?

People trust the government to make bombs and invade countries, but they don't trust the government to handle healthcare???

I've seen that argument before. The very poignant response to your question is:

"The US Government is great at killing people but not so great at saving people."

Originally posted by snowdragon
I don't see why the USA can't have both systems in place, if you want more buy more.

I'll bet if some right wing study groups came out and showed a boost in producitivity levels for US workers and increased profitability for businesses then a national healthcase system would be put in place tomorrow.

Even if it didn't increase profitability for businesses it could still be a HUGE benefit to them since they would no longer have lost man hours managing group health plans with renewals etc etc not having to worry about COBRA which is monitored by the IRS etc etc

Yes, that is how it works with NHS: you can buy more insurance so you can get access to private care (to skip waiting and get elective surgeries and medicines).

Here is what I thought was an entertaining write-up on how this works with NHS:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=16406212

However, you may not mean this...you may mean something else?

The idea that is being tossed around as the way forward for the US is to expand Medicare to cover all and still allow insurance companies to function as "medicare supplement" companies to reduce the out of pocket costs.

The estimates on how much that would cost are not accurate because, imo, they lack one key element to demonstrate a true cost: the cost spent on healthcare increases dramatically when an American is 40 or older simply because they use it more often.

Originally posted by Foxsteak
It may be an upgrade, it may not. The problem with the US is you guys have states that don't want a federal healthcare system. ..................... None of the states want a federal system.................

The US situation is so complex, I don't even know where to begin.

This is why the US Constitution has the "Necessary and Proper Clause": if we need to create legislation that forces the states to participate in a universal healthcare option, we can do it.

Originally posted by Raisen
maybe we could limit a lot of the wasted money we drop into other countries, decriminalize drugs, stop spending money on adult illegal immigrants, tighten up welfare, and stop spending countless dollars irritating other sovereign nations then we would have more than enough money to give every American a stellar education and keep them healthy.

then. maybe then. we would have enough residual money to help out our poorer brethren in other countries.

isn't this common sense?

Originally posted by Scribble
Sure is, but good luck getting the world to listen. I'm right behind you on every step of that but people are too caught up in tribal mentality and semantics to bother.

true.

Originally posted by Scribble
I haven't seen Sicko.

Anyway, reducing immigration and stuff like that would solve that issue, without having to get rid of the NHS. The NHS isn't perfect by any means, particularly with mental health, I'm not saying it is. But at the end of the day, I come from a fairly poor family, and the NHS saved my dad's life twice (without putting our entire family into crushing debt that we probably wouldn't have recovered from!), so if I did anything else but support the existence of the NHS I'd be pretty stupid.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here is what I thought was an entertaining write-up on how this works with NHS:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=16406212

However, you may not mean this...you may mean something else?

The idea that is being tossed around as the way forward for the US is to expand Medicare to cover all and still allow insurance companies to function as "medicare supplement" companies to reduce the out of pocket costs.

The estimates on how much that would cost are not accurate because, imo, they lack one key element to demonstrate a true cost: the cost spent on healthcare increases dramatically when an American is 40 or older simply because they use it more often.

I just think when its being discussed its not being presented as a win for capitalism as well as for everyday folks. Instead folks stay focused on the GOVT part of healthcare.

Talk about the real benefits to people aside from the obvious healthcare aspect. Such as businesses no longer having the cost of healthcare so they can be more competitive in the international workplace, less administrative costs and man hours, fewer regulations and rules, less tax hassle, more productive workforce not worrying about illness, not stuck with a job you dislike just for benefits etc.

Instead the talks stays very static......taxes......govt.....healthcare.......etc. The reality is anyone that has health benefits through an employer doesn't even have to pay full market value for the insurance itself just the services so there is a disconnect with the masses.

I don't know what the costs would be however there is also the fact that it could (depending on taxes etc) could allow more money to flow in our cheap consumer economy so more toys bought etc........so many benefits!

my shoulder surgery only cost me 200 dollars out of pocket. that was cool

Originally posted by Raisen
my shoulder surgery only cost me 200 dollars out of pocket. that was cool

What health plan are you on?

Originally posted by Robtard
What health plan are you on?

Kaiser northern California.

I pay a little over 50 dollars bi weekly. it's the standard self option

Originally posted by BackFire
No that's nothing like Ocare really. There's no public option in Ocare. There was going to be but they didn't have the votes. You aren't wrong, though, insurance companies are too powerful and they were afraid of the public option because it would probably render their product obsolete by offering a cheaper alternative with little to no drawbacks for the customer.

That's fine, if government run insurance is better and more effective then so be it. If the private insurance companies can't compete then they would simply shut down and cease to exist, which would be fine.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is why the US Constitution has the "Necessary and Proper Clause": if we need to create legislation that forces the states to participate in a universal healthcare option, we can do it.

Originally posted by Foxsteak
Some states may lose monies if socialised medicine becomes a US thing.

But some states will lose monies cos socialised medicine.

How is that, are you talking about the federal money granted for medicaid/medicare/aca grants etc?

Socialism will not happen in the US because no state will have socialised medicine.

Originally posted by Foxsteak
I understand your stance, but philosophically, I think such a circumstance can still exist in a more capitalist health care system in the UK.

Originally posted by Scribble
I just don't think that poor people should be forced to pay exorbitant amounts of money if they want to literally not die. We have private healthcare in this country too that people can choose to go to if they have the money; what's the issue?

I feel uncomfortable knowing that one institution has complete control over every countryman's health.

Originally posted by Raisen
maybe we could limit a lot of the wasted money we drop into other countries, decriminalize drugs, stop spending money on adult illegal immigrants, tighten up welfare, and stop spending countless dollars irritating other sovereign nations then we would have more than enough money to give every American a stellar education and keep them healthy.

then. maybe then. we would have enough residual money to help out our poorer brethren in other countries.

isn't this common sense?

Let's break down your list and put actual numbers to that list:

Welfare and other 'Means-Test' programs:
$1 Trillion

According to the Cato Institute, we spend about $1 Trillion on Welfare and means-test programs from local to federal levels:

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/american-welfare-state-how-we-spend-nearly-$1-trillion-year-fighting-poverty-fail

Foreign aid:
$49 Billion

"According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service (CRS), which uses the broadest definition of aid [PDF], including military and security assistance, total spending was nearly $49 billion in 2015. This accounts for roughly 1.3 percent of the federal budget."

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-does-us-spend-its-foreign-aid

War on Drugs:
$76 Billion

"Since Richard Nixon declared a war on drugs back in the 1970s the United States Government has spent nearly $1 Trillion towards eradicating the drug problem in this country. In 2015 alone $36 billion was spent on the war on drugs, but that number was just for law enforcement and some social services, and does not take into account the cost of incarceration for nonviolent drug offenders once they are arrested and sentenced to jail.

Roughly $80 billion is spent each year on incarcerating American prisoners and since 50% of our prison population is serving time for drug-related crimes that means that an additional $40 billion needs to be added to $36 billion price tag for the war on drugs, bringing the grand total to $76 billion."

Cost of Illegal Immigrants:
$99 Billion

"The $113 billion is not a net cost. Taking into consideration federal, state and local tax payments made by the undocumented population, the net cost would be about $99 billion, according to the FAIR report."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/

Cost of Foreign Wars
$350 Billion

The above number is on average spent each year, since 9-11, on our foreign wars.

"As of late September 2017, the United States wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria and the additional spending on Homeland Security, and the Departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs since the 9/11 attacks totaled more than $4.3 trillion in current dollars through FY2017. Adding likely costs for FY2018 and estimated future spending on veterans, the costs of war total more than $5.6 trillion."

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2017/Costs%20of%20U.S.%20Post-9_11%20NC%20Crawford%20FINAL%20.pdf

All numbers together:
$1 Trillion
$49 Billion
$76 Billion
$99 Billion
$350 Billion

Total: $1.574 Trillion per annum

What are you thoughts now that you have actual numbers, by category, for each are you mentioned?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Let's break down your list and put actual numbers to that list:

[b]Welfare and other 'Means-Test' programs:
$1 Trillion

According to the Cato Institute, we spend about $1 Trillion on Welfare and means-test programs from local to federal levels:

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/american-welfare-state-how-we-spend-nearly-$1-trillion-year-fighting-poverty-fail

Foreign aid:
[b]$49 Billion

"According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service (CRS), which uses the broadest definition of aid [PDF], including military and security assistance, total spending was nearly $49 billion in 2015. This accounts for roughly 1.3 percent of the federal budget."

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-does-us-spend-its-foreign-aid

War on Drugs:
[b]$76 Billion

"Since Richard Nixon declared a war on drugs back in the 1970s the United States Government has spent nearly $1 Trillion towards eradicating the drug problem in this country. In 2015 alone $36 billion was spent on the war on drugs, but that number was just for law enforcement and some social services, and does not take into account the cost of incarceration for nonviolent drug offenders once they are arrested and sentenced to jail.

Roughly $80 billion is spent each year on incarcerating American prisoners and since 50% of our prison population is serving time for drug-related crimes that means that an additional $40 billion needs to be added to $36 billion price tag for the war on drugs, bringing the grand total to $76 billion."

Cost of Illegal Immigrants:
$99 Billion

"The $113 billion is not a net cost. Taking into consideration federal, state and local tax payments made by the undocumented population, the net cost would be about $99 billion, according to the FAIR report."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/

Cost of Foreign Wars
$350 Billion

The above number is on average spent each year, since 9-11, on our foreign wars.

"As of late September 2017, the United States wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria and the additional spending on Homeland Security, and the Departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs since the 9/11 attacks totaled more than $4.3 trillion in current dollars through FY2017. Adding likely costs for FY2018 and estimated future spending on veterans, the costs of war total more than $5.6 trillion."

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2017/Costs%20of%20U.S.%20Post-9_11%20NC%20Crawford%20FINAL%20.pdf

All numbers together:
$1 Trillion
$49 Billion
$76 Billion
$99 Billion
$350 Billion

Total: $1.574 Trillion per annum

What are you thoughts now that you have actual numbers, by category, for each are you mentioned? [/B]

my thoughts are i'm neither an accountant or a money guy but that's a shiit ton of money that could be used to properly educate americans and keep them healthy

if people want more socialism in this country then why not change this war on drugs and emulate something like they have in the Netherlands.