Hamill to Johnson: "I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything..."

Originally posted by ares834
Agreeing with someone is changing the goal posts now. 😂

It's almost as f I didn't bring up the setting once. An lo and behold, I didn't. I never made such an argument!

Right. I'm confused as to what the poster you thumbed up was supposed to have nailed then. Y'know. Like I asked. 😐

So we are back to me agreeing with a poster and not me making an argument and thus never changing the goal posts. Glad we agree.

Right, the posters point being a flop because its irrelevant. And doesn't disprove or undermine any of my arguments. 😂

Yeah let's move on.

Originally posted by ares834
That's fine. But then they shouldn't undermine the characters like they seem to be doing with Luke or completely undo all character growth as they did with Han.

Also these are movies not the real world. Having the hero utterly fail is completely unfulfilling and it hurts the previous films.

What is unfulfilling is having a hero never stop winning, and creates bland plots that revolve around the next monster of the week, like intergalatic space invaders or something.

At least it seems like this has more potential to not be a carbon copy like TFA was. Though I imagine it will mirror ESB quite strongly.

You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.

Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.

Mind explaining how the heroes "never stopped winning" before the st. Did the prequel trilogy not happen? What about esb?

And no, resetting the whole fcking lore rather than actually being creative and creating something new isn't good story telling, its lazy story telling. And if you're going to fundementally change the lore you're redoing, then you're also fundementally changing the original lore.

The problem isn't that disney went for a new direction. The problem is disney went for a new direction trying to tell the exact same story.

The magnitude of the problem won't be known for some time, since it'll depend on whether Luke succeeds in rebuilding the Jedi Order, though I expect him to die in the process (ie. die during the ST). So I'm kind of in agreement with Ares here.

Certainly the RotJ ending is hugely compromised by the ST in my opinion. The thing is the RotS ending led directly into the setting of ANH despite the huge time gap. The RotJ ending and the TFA setting couldn't be further apart. It's like there should've been another trilogy in between.

Originally posted by ares834
You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.

Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.

For example you still haven't explained how Luke's character has been "undone". That suggests he's back where he started, yet evidently he's nothing like the farmboy we found on Tatooine. He has experienced and retained growth obviously, he just hasn't necessarily remained on the same path.

The fact that he has changed dramatically in character making him interesting. Already miles more so than he ever was in Legends.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mind explaining how the heroes "never stopped winning" before the st. Did the prequel trilogy not happen? What about esb?

And no, resetting the whole fcking lore rather than actually being creative and creating something new isn't good story telling, its lazy story telling. And if you're going to fundementally change the lore you're redoing, then you're also fundementally changing the original lore.

The problem isn't that disney went for a new direction. The problem is disney went for a new direction trying to tell the exact same story.

Originally posted by ares834
You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.

Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.

Where did I say Luke was "undone"? If so, I misspoke. I said Han's character growth was undone and Luke's accomplishments have been undone (hence me calling him a failure).

@Beni - Luke changes dramatically in Legends as well by falling to the dark side, Mara's death, etc. Though I agree he remains fairly static as a character from the NJO series onwards.

Originally posted by ares834
Where did I say Luke was "undone"? If so, I misspoke. I said Han's character growth was undone and Luke's accomplishments have been undone (hence me calling him a failure).

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Beni - Luke changes dramatically in Legends as well by falling to the dark side, Mara's death, etc. Though I agree he remains fairly static as a character from the NJO series onwards.

Yeah, Luke is actually a very dynamic character in the EU from RotJ up to the Unifying Force.

Also, before we get into claims about his shift in character, we actually have to see The Last Jedi. So far, all we know is that he's failed in rebuilding the Jedi Order and lives in exile. A several-second sequence of him turning and lowering his hood in TFA is not enough to judge the shift in his character, lmfao. At best we can argue that it sets up the potential for a dramatic character shift, but nothing more.

I'd rather see Luke's character develop than him become a Yoda clone tbh.

Luke doesn't become a Yoda clone in Legends, except maybe at the end of DNT up to mid-LotF. He certainly has far more emotional character than Yoda, even in Legends.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd rather see Luke's character develop than him become a Yoda clone tbh.

And legends Luke's order wasn't the same as yoda's