New (sketchy) Valkorion scaling

Since you're really the only one other than Nova I really care to debate regarding this topic:

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, I have to applaud you for the fact that this was probably the best attempt at a Valkorion > Sheev essay that has been recently done here.

Appreciated. Perhaps if I put some real effort in I could persuade you 🙂

Not that I buy it, since it utterly ignored Sheev's accolades (I don't care how much you dislike them; they're canonical fact and dismissing them without real reason is indicative of bias (not saying you are but still))

The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.

and focused on what he hasn't done. This falls flat, because instead, you should be focusing on what he can't do instead of what he hasn't,

Agreeable.

since he is canonically > Valkorion

Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.

and saying that's false because Sheev hasn't done something Valkorion has is a fallacy and the equivalent of an auto-concession.

It's a fallacy if Sheev is indeed canonically > Valk. Admittedly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

When making a direct comparison, even ignoring Sheev's accolades, RotS Sidious outclassed Valkorion by a hilarious amount in almost all areas (see my Palpatine essay for that).Since you're really the only one other than Nova I really care to debate on this,here's a response.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, I have to applaud you for the fact that this was probably the best attempt at a Valkorion > Sheev essay that has been recently done here.

Appreciated. Perhaps if I put some real effort in I could persuade you 🙂

[QUOTE] Not that I buy it, since it utterly ignored Sheev's accolades (I don't care how much you dislike them; they're canonical fact and dismissing them without real reason is indicative of bias (not saying you are but still))

The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.

and focused on what he hasn't done. This falls flat, because instead, you should be focusing on what he can't do instead of what he hasn't,

Agreeable.

since he is canonically > Valkorion

Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.

and saying that's false because Sheev hasn't done something Valkorion has is a fallacy and the equivalent of an auto-concession.

It's a fallacy if Sheev is indeed canonically > Valk. Admittedly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

When making a direct comparison, even ignoring Sheev's accolades, RotS Sidious outclassed Valkorion by a hilarious amount in almost all areas (see my Palpatine essay for that). And it's not like he can't blow up a big ship; someone fodder to him in Starkiller did that.

However, I'd still like a source for the Eternal Fleet cruiser being as long as you claim it is. [/QUOTE]

Again, disagree with that given that Vitiate's power was so widely dispersed when performing nearly all his feats pre-Ziost and post-Novel. Granted, not as much as Sidious'

And it's not like he can't blow up a big ship; someone fodder to him in Starkiller did that.

Hadn't considered the Salvation feat tbh.

However, I'd still like a source for the Eternal Fleet cruiser being as long as you claim it is.

In the cutscene where the Terminus-class crashes into an EF Battlecruiser, we see that it's ~30% longer than the Terminus, while at a angle that makes the Terminus look larger than it really is since it was "closer to the camera." So we can easily estimate it was no less than 35% larger than a Terminus, likely more around 40% larger, so I estimated about 800 meters (which is also what the Wookiepedia page says, take that as you will).

Originally posted by Tondemonai
The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.

Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.

Go ahead.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640221.html

There's also this which isn't in the thread due to it being discovered later:

Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

-The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection)

Again, disagree with that given that Vitiate's power was so widely dispersed when performing nearly all his feats pre-Ziost and post-Novel. Granted, not as much as Sidious'

Not sure what you mean. But frankly, I don't think it matters because the Ziost feat is a clear display of Vitiate at his limit. Palpatine doesn't have an established limit and the feats he performs (and is capable of during RotS) are far greater in scope, magnitude and nuance, but also casual for him. There's no comparison in my eyes.

Hadn't considered the Salvation feat tbh.

Yeah, and Starkiller is fodder for Palpatine. Tyth, with this feat, isn't scratching RotS Palpatine's tier. Hell, I don't even think he's on Vader's level.

In the cutscene where the Terminus-class crashes into an EF Battlecruiser, we see that it's ~30% longer than the Terminus, while at a angle that makes the Terminus look larger than it really is since it was "closer to the camera." So we can easily estimate it was no less than 35% larger than a Terminus, likely more around 40% larger, so I estimated about 800 meters (which is also what the Wookiepedia page says, take that as you will).

I could go into this but I'll take your word for it. Anyway, Tyth never destroyed the whole ship. He heats the whole ship up but only a portion is blown off.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAp9vsC30gY&t=27m23s

Even Starkiller's feat is better.

Originally posted by Azronger

Go ahead

If I have time to put some effort in I will. As of now, I barely had time for this:

Considering that Vitiate abandoned his Sith Empire to start the Empire of Zakuul, and completely relinquished the Sith as his focus, we could argue that no later than 200 BTC he wouldn't be considered a Sith anymore, and thus would not fall under Sidious' "strongest Sith in history" accolades. On the point of Sidious' "strongest Dark aside expression" and "strongest Dark aside wielder in history" accolades, the Son and Abeloth would fall under that accolade, and thus the accolades are made void and unreliable.

Not sure what you mean.

I was referring to the point that Vitiate's feats "aren't impressive," when the reason for them being less impressive than they could have been is because his power was hugely dispersed across the galaxy.

But frankly, I don't think it matters because the Ziost feat is a clear display of Vitiate at his limit.

And that limit is extremely high, as it is completely reasonable to assume he still had a portion of his power within the Valkorion body. We know he didn't immediately go to Ziost, and the only logical place be would've gone is to make sure his children didn't kill the Valkorion body. He likely would've left some power in it, which means he performed the Ziost feat when not at full power at that time, and then there's the obviously large gap between Ziost Tenebrae and KotFE Valkorion.

To address the magnitude of the Ziost feat being inferior to the Byss one, keep in mind that while he dominated most of the populace and not all of it, several hundred (if not in the thousands) of those he dominated were Jedi and Sith, while Sidious had to dominate the minds of weak, non-Forceful beings gradually. It's clear Vitiate didn't have much trouble mindslaving the people on Ziost given that he still had the energy and focus to create dozens the most powerful and complexly created Sithspawn in history (not to mention the Colossal and Worldbreaker Monolith's).

Now, something that I don't think many people consider: Vitiate was likely only able to dominate the Sith on Nathema with a ritual. However, after the Nathema consuming feat was performed, he likely would've had the power to do it without a ritual, given that his power grew exponentially. Also pertaining to his consuming of Nathema, he needed the power of the 8k Sith to do it with a ritual. After the ritual, he had their power, plus the planets and it's populace. This means he could replicate the feat on his own and perform the ritual in less time given he himself had more power than was needed/used during the Nathema ritual.

Palpatine doesn't have an established limit and the feats he performs (and is capable of during RotS) are far greater in scope, magnitude and nuance, but also casual for him. There's no comparison in my eyes.

I agree many of Sidious' feat are > Vitiate's, but not all of them, and we've never actually seen Vitiate use his full power, while we have seen Sidious' (vs Yoda we see him pushed to his limit).

Yeah, and Starkiller is fodder for Palpatine. Tyth, with this feat, isn't scratching RotS Palpatine's tier. Hell, I don't even think he's on Vader's level.

Starkiller's feat was performed with extreme concentration and effort, and (arguably) with a rage amp, while Tyth performed his casually with minimal charging, and that's not even bringing up the fact that Tyth destroyed a much larger target (approximately 6-7x larger). Presumably, he also did it while not at full power, given that multiple references were made to him not being "fully resurrected", which can easily be interpreted as him being weaker than usual (though without concrete evidence the point is somewhat void).

I could go into this but I'll take your word for it. Anyway, Tyth never destroyed the whole ship. He heats the whole ship up but only a portion is blown off.

We never see the final fate of it, but we quite clearly see it separating into several pieces and exploding. Note that we have never seen an Eternal fleet Battlecruiser destroyed so completely outside of the end of Chapter 16.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If I have time to put some effort in I will. As of now, I barely had time for this:

Considering that Vitiate abandoned his Sith Empire to start the Empire of Zakuul, and completely relinquished the Sith as his focus, we could argue that no later than 200 BTC he wouldn't be considered a Sith anymore, and thus would not fall under Sidious' "strongest Sith in history" accolades.

Vitiate's personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant. He went down in the history books and official sourcebooks as Sith, and as such he is considered a Sith at least until the end of vanilla TOR. Although the official website still labels him a Sith as of Ziost, and the codex also states he is a "Sith entity" even as Valkorion, so Sidious' accolades are valid to use even there.

On the point of Sidious' "strongest Dark aside expression" and "strongest Dark aside wielder in history" accolades, the Son and Abeloth would fall under that accolade, and thus the accolades are made void and unreliable.

I am sorry, but that's horrible logic.

Firstly, you are assuming without basis that the Son and Abeloth are somehow special and that they are excluded from such quotes. If a quote comes declaring Palpatine or Valkorion or Luke or Yoda stronger than the Ones, than that's now fact.

Second, Sidious' accolades do not apply to the Son and Abeloth. Both characters have a myriad of accolades declaring them to be more powerful than DE Palpatine, GM Luke Skywalker, any Sith or any Force user, period.

Third, you, for some reason, think that because the Son and Abeloth do not fall under the jurisdiction of Sidious' quotes, the quotes becomes entirely unreliable. If we were to apply that kind of logic to every accolade, we'd start getting some real funny results. The fact of the matter is that only characters who have accolades putting them outside Sidious' quote, are outside their jurisdiction, and Vitiate isn't the Son or Abeloth; Vitiate is Vitiate. He does not have such accolades.

I was referring to the point that Vitiate's feats "aren't impressive," when the reason for them being less impressive than they could have been is because his power was hugely dispersed across the galaxy.

I never called his feats unimpressive, so not sure why you're bringing this up. Although I'd still like to know how is power is dispersed.

And that limit is extremely high, as it is completely reasonable to assume he still had a portion of his power within the Valkorion body. We know he didn't immediately go to Ziost, and the only logical place be would've gone is to make sure his children didn't kill the Valkorion body. He likely would've left some power in it, which means he performed the Ziost feat when not at full power at that time, and then there's the obviously large gap between Ziost Tenebrae and KotFE Valkorion.

This falls under pure speculation. The first place Vitiate went to was Yavin IV. This is hinted at in the codex and also the letter from Servant One.

Also, if Vitiate wanted to make sure the Valkorion body did not get killed, he wouldn't have placed any power into it, since his essence isn't powerful enough to defeat either of his children, admitting this much himself and also being hinted at in the codex. It would make zero sense to weaken himself further when he couldn't defeat his children anyway.

To address the magnitude of the Ziost feat being inferior to the Byss one, keep in mind that while he dominated most of the populace and not all of it, several hundred (if not in the thousands) of those he dominated were Jedi and Sith, while Sidious had to dominate the minds of weak, non-Forceful beings gradually. It's clear Vitiate didn't have much trouble mindslaving the people on Ziost given that he still had the energy and focus to create dozens the most powerful and complexly created Sithspawn in history (not to mention the Colossal and Worldbreaker Monolith's).

None of this still puts him above Palpatine. Fact is Vitiate couldn't even dominate the entire planet, and couldn't possess unconscious people, clear signs these were beyond his power level. If you want to say the possession of Force users and the creation of Monolith's makes up for that, fine, but don't pretend it even remotely makes up for Palpatine's feat being only an infantile fraction of his power (possibly less than a tenth), and being done from across the galaxy, which is an indescribably monumental demonstration of power compared to Vitiate's.

Now, something that I don't think many people consider: Vitiate was likely only able to dominate the Sith on Nathema with a ritual. However, after the Nathema consuming feat was performed, he likely would've had the power to do it without a ritual, given that his power grew exponentially. Also pertaining to his consuming of Nathema, he needed the power of the 8k Sith to do it with a ritual. After the ritual, he had their power, plus the planets and it's populace. This means he could replicate the feat on his own and perform the ritual in less time given he himself had more power than was needed/used during the Nathema ritual.

Vitiate never even dominated the Sith on Nathema. That's been debunked countless times. Vitiate also never gained the Sith's power; that's stated nowhere, and actively contracted by his later showings regardless. He can only do something equivalent to the Nathema ritual as of TOR with max power, not anytime before that. If he truly had the power of 8000 Sith, then he'd be a casual star buster by the time of TOR.

I agree many of Sidious' feat are > Vitiate's, but not all of them, and we've never actually seen Vitiate use his full power, while we have seen Sidious' (vs Yoda we see him pushed to his limit).

Vitiate used his full power on Ziost, so that's false. Sidious being pushed to his limit by Yoda doesn't help Vitiate here, given that Yoda's only time being pushed to his limit was against Sidious also. Sidious' casual feats already outstrip Vitiate's max effort ones by RotS. There's no comparison.

Starkiller's feat was performed with extreme concentration and effort, and (arguably) with a rage amp, while Tyth performed his casually with minimal charging, and that's not even bringing up the fact that Tyth destroyed a much larger target (approximately 6-7x larger). Presumably, he also did it while not at full power, given that multiple references were made to him not being "fully resurrected", which can easily be interpreted as him being weaker than usual (though without concrete evidence the point is somewhat void).

We never see the final fate of it, but we quite clearly see it separating into several pieces and exploding. Note that we have never seen an Eternal fleet Battlecruiser destroyed so completely outside of the end of Chapter 16.

I don't really care for the rest of this since it's Sidious I'm defending here, not Starkiller.

Yea, needs to be pointed out: Teth was able to blast that ship after drawing on some of the outlander's power. So him being able to do that of his own ability is highly dubious.

You mean Tyth? No he wasn't, lmfao. Tyth isn't even Force-sensitive.

Who cares whether he's force sensitive. He charged up using the outlander's power...
"the betrayer now offers you sacrifice. Fuel for the six gods"

the outlander was used to charge up the attack. Whether he's a force sensitive or not is moot

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You mean Tyth? No he wasn't, lmfao. Tyth isn't even Force-sensitive.

Right, because the ability he used to destroy the Battlecruiser was totally a rocket/energy projectile and not a clearly Force-based technique

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Who cares whether he's force sensitive. He charged up using the outlander's power...
"the betrayer now offers you sacrifice. Fuel for the six gods"

the outlander was used to charge up the attack. Whether he's a force sensitive or not is moot

Lolno. He's saying the Outlander was to be sacrificed as a means to fully resurrect Tyth, he didn't draw on their power in any way

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Right, because the ability he used to destroy the Battlecruiser was totally a rocket/energy projectile and not a clearly Force-based technique

Lolno. He's saying the Outlander was to be sacrificed as a means to fully resurrect Tyth, he didn't draw on their power in any way

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Too bad we see him visibly drawing on the oulander's power while charging his blast.

Except we don't lol

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Considering that Vitiate abandoned his Sith Empire to start the Empire of Zakuul, and completely relinquished the Sith as his focus, we could argue that no later than 200 BTC he wouldn't be considered a Sith anymore, and thus would not fall under Sidious' "strongest Sith in history" accolades. On the point of Sidious' "strongest Dark aside expression" and "strongest Dark aside wielder in history" accolades, the Son and Abeloth would fall under that accolade, and thus the accolades are made void and unreliable.

Tenebrae holds his own in the aspect of accolades with following:

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."

---

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

---

Enigmatic and supremely powerful, the Emperor directs his domain from the shadows and manipulates the galaxy to carry out his will.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I was referring to the point that Vitiate's feats "aren't impressive," when the reason for them being less impressive than they could have been is because his power was hugely dispersed across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
To address the magnitude of the Ziost feat being inferior to the Byss one, keep in mind that while he dominated most of the populace and not all of it, several hundred (if not in the thousands) of those he dominated were Jedi and Sith, while Sidious had to dominate the minds of weak, non-Forceful beings gradually. It's clear Vitiate didn't have much trouble mindslaving the people on Ziost given that he still had the energy and focus to create dozens the most powerful and complexly created Sithspawn in history (not to mention the Colossal and Worldbreaker Monolith's).

Inhabitants of Byss were loyal to Palpatine and were not resisting his effort to influence them. In-fact, due to their loyalty, they did not even notice that Palpatine attempted to influence them. Palpatine's influence over inhabitants of Byss is a significant demonstration of CONTROL on his part as per DE Sourcebook. Byss was actually a source of power for Palpatine, not a strain on his resources.

On the other hand, inhabitants of Ziost were not loyal to Tenebrae. The latter was forced to exert his influence over unwilling subjects in order to create an environment of violence and anarchy across the planet. Tenebrae's influence over inhabitants of Ziost is a significant demonstration of both CONTROL and ALTER on his part.

Monoliths are beyond Sithspawn; they are not a product of living tissue but manifestations of pure Dark Side energy.

Tenebrae's demonstrations on Ziost are not just limited to telepathically subjugating the inhabitants of Ziost (including scores of Jedi and Sith) but also constituted creation of monstrosities: incredibly complex set of activities visible in this case. And Tenebrae pulled it off in the process of regaining his strength (any advantage of setting essentially null and void).

When Tenebrae regained his strength, he devastated Ziost in a span of 2 minutes. Ever seen something like that from Palpatine? Even Palpatine's most destructive power in Force Storm cannot end a world in a span of 2 minutes; not even close.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Now, something that I don't think many people consider: Vitiate was likely only able to dominate the Sith on Nathema with a ritual. However, after the Nathema consuming feat was performed, he likely would've had the power to do it without a ritual, given that his power grew exponentially. Also pertaining to his consuming of Nathema, he needed the power of the 8k Sith to do it with a ritual. After the ritual, he had their power, plus the planets and it's populace. This means he could replicate the feat on his own and perform the ritual in less time given he himself had more power than was needed/used during the Nathema ritual.

In contrast, Tenebrae devastated Ziost in a span of 2 minutes or less.

Growth in power was slow but substantial.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I agree many of Sidious' feat are > Vitiate's, but not all of them, and we've never actually seen Vitiate use his full power, while we have seen Sidious' (vs Yoda we see him pushed to his limit).

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Starkiller's feat was performed with extreme concentration and effort, and (arguably) with a rage amp, while Tyth performed his casually with minimal charging, and that's not even bringing up the fact that Tyth destroyed a much larger target (approximately 6-7x larger). Presumably, he also did it while not at full power, given that multiple references were made to him not being "fully resurrected", which can easily be interpreted as him being weaker than usual (though without concrete evidence the point is somewhat void).

Tyth one-shotted a completely stable Starship from the outside (where its defenses would be greatest).

No comparison in this case either.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Except we don't lol

Tyth was drawing on the outlander's power right before the attack:
https://youtu.be/M-ckGSk3K2Q?t=8m36s

Tyth was also drawing on the outlander's power during the attack:
https://youtu.be/M-ckGSk3K2Q?t=8m50s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37qtIZ4o4w&t=11m43s

Nah, that's standard shit. That electricity shit isn't drain.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37qtIZ4o4w&t=11m43s

Nah, that's standard shit. That electricity shit isn't drain.

Tyth says he'll be using the outlander's power, "your sacrifice will fuel the gods", And then proceeds to perform said feat in conjunction with the aid of the outlander.

The feat is clearly not something tyth could have done on his own.

Not that him being able to do it on his own would prove anything in relation to sids anyway.

Even if valk legitimately beat tyth, that only raises sis who gets to scale off him.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Doesn't really matter,

Tyth says he'll be using the outlander's power, "your sacrifice will fuel the gods", And then proceeds to perform said feat in conjunction with the aid of the outlander.

The feat is clearly not something tyth could have done on his own.

Not that him being able to do it on his own would prove anything in relation to sids anyway.

Even if valk legitimately beat tyth, that only raises sis who gets to scale off him.

Someone get the retard alert gif I can't find it

He literally doesn't get that Tyth was referring to killing the Outlander, it's hilarious.