Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's ragdolling ROTS Kenobi in the same continuity that Vader is roughly stalemating a shadow of ROTS' former self.
Sabers vs Force, buddy. I thought you held RotS Obi-Wan and Dooku as equals in sabers?
Although Ben Kenobi is a shadow of his former self in sabers, Vader grows considerably in sabers after that. And Ben Kenobi's more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.
I'd rank both Dooku and ROTS Kenobi as better duelists than Vader or Revan. And while Vader improved, I doubt that significantly. The best way to improve is via fighting those your own skill or training under someone of greater skill IMO, and besides ANH Kenobi, Vader had no opportunity. In regards to the Force, I'm not sure ANH Kenobi is more powerful than ROTS Kenobi in Legends. Canon? Sure. Legends? Eh, I'd say they are at least comparable... close enough so that ROTJ Vader isn't doing what Dooku did to him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sabers vs Force, buddy. I thought you held RotS Obi-Wan and Dooku as equals in sabers?Although Ben Kenobi is a shadow of his former self in sabers, Vader grows considerably in sabers after that. And Ben Kenobi's more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.
ROTS Kenobi would probably due well against Dooku in sabers only. Many say Dooku could potentially find an opening in Kenobi's defensives although I'd say he may tire out before doing so.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd rank both Dooku and ROTS Kenobi as better duelists than Vader or Revan. And while Vader improved, I doubt that significantly. The best way to improve is via fighting those your own skill or training under someone of greater skill IMO, and besides ANH Kenobi, Vader had no opportunity. In regards to the Force, I'm not sure ANH Kenobi is more powerful than ROTS Kenobi in Legends. Canon? Sure. Legends? Eh, I'd say they are at least comparable... close enough so that ROTJ Vader isn't doing what Dooku did to him.
Per Insider #62: Fightsaber, Vader improved considerably in sabers:
Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.-- Insider #62: Fightsaber
And Obi-Wan Kenobi factually grows in power from RotS to ANH in Legends. Though they could still be close.
It says he freed himself of emotional pain and gained a greater mastery over both himself and the Force, in addition to practicing with various opponents and altering his fighting style.
As for Obi-Wan:
Where is he? How could he vanish? What sort of trickery is this? He had assumed Obi-Wan's study of the Force had ended long ago, and that his powers had diminished over time. But Vader was wrong.-- A New Hope Junior Novelization
That's from October 2004, done in relation to the release of RotS IIRC.
There's another one but I don't have it on hand. There's also the one from the ANH novel but that's 1977.
The emotional pain and master over himself broke down with the return of Luke with ESB and ROTJ, which was Vader's prime, so I don't see that relevant.
Practicing with fodder isn't that relevant to me. Got any examples of how his fighting style was altered?
And nah, that quote's more toward Kenobi's newfound power over death, not overall increase in combative power.
From 2004 regardless.
That's 19BBY, so it wouldn't be much. Though if his physicality was declining by then alone then that doesn't bode well for ANH Obi-Wan.
Then again, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that Ben has slowed and Death Star confirms that he's out of practice, which ties in with Fightsaber claiming that he was a shadow of his former self.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's 19BBY, so it wouldn't be much. Though if his physicality was declining by then alone then that doesn't bode well for ANH Obi-Wan.Then again, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that Ben has slowed and Death Star confirms that he's out of practice, which ties in with Fightsaber claiming that he was a shadow of his former self.
The Death Star book is 2007 too.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's sabers, not Force. We've had his sabers decline established since 2002. Though the fact that Vader outright senses how out of practice Ben is through the Force in a 2007 source is particularly telling, I agree.
Eh but then the 08 Life and Legend of Kenobi, still noted he was doing Jedi exercises, among other things mentioned and it's generally noted Masters of Form 3 are considered undefeatable. Then noting Vader's saber feats and duels in both Purge and TFU series, Obi-Wan holding out against him for a time is pretty good, so even if there's a decline I don't really see it being much an issue frankly.