Councilor Hamann...

Maul’s Woman said:
Humankind is its own enemy. It created the A.I. in it's own mental image. The A.I. got powerful and the humans tried shutting it down like in all the other A.I. type movies and scenarios. Being a "creative and independent intelligence" the A.I. fought back in the most logical fashion... it took over the humans.

Okay, I can buy that.

I never understood why A.I. is always made out to be a bad thing in film and literature?

I mean … if I raise my children, and at some point their intellect exceeds mine, I would feel a sense of overwhelming pride and accomplishment, fear and loathing would be the last thing on my mind. In short, I wouldn’t try to stop my children from being "creative and independent intelligences", so I don’t see why I would do that to a computer generated "creative and independent intelligence".

Personally, in my humble opinion, I think that conformity (as represented by Agent Smith) is the True Enemy of mankind (and “machine” alike).

All human societies are conformist. Rigid. That is one of the essence of culture even when the evolve they are conformist.

Most humans are not of the mind that we love seeing our children exceed us. Most people don't have children for such a reason. Many have children to help with the work and for other selfish/not so very selfish reasons. Adults are supreme and children follow in the footsteps of the parents or the adults of society. Stray from that and the child or developing adult is branded as a rebel, an outlaw, a troublemaker, so on and so forth. So it would not be very different with an A.I. It would be perceived as a threat to our autonomy.

Most humans are not of the mind that we love seeing our children exceed us.

I disagree.

In fact, technological progress is based on the idea that what comes in the future is superior (larger, more complex) to what happens today.

Just to test my own sense of foresight, I am guessing you do not have any children of your own?

You think as an individual. Nothing wrong with that. But human society as a whole is not oriented toward pushing our children to exceed us. Succeed us yes. We call that heirdom. Sometimes the heirs of our "estates" are not children from our bodies. I have seen and heard many many stories of jealous parents. people who are jealous of their children and their children successes. Many "primitive" societies are not geared toward the parents seeing their children exceed them. The children are produced to work. Even not so "primitive" human societies and cultures do the exact same thing. People have children as a matter of course. Most people do not have children because they LOVE children or love people, or love humanity for that matter. To many children are a "mistake" or something that just happened because they had sexual intercourse and didn't take precautions. So on and so forth. There is only a few people on earth who actually procreate because they love children, or love people, or love humanity. In advanced societies people often have children for selfish reasons. Religion plays a very very great part in many of the reasons. Spurring on uncontrollable procreation which in turn becomes irresponsible in the end.

You are very correct... I have no children yet. 😄

But in the case of the A.I., a child of our mind with the ability to "think and create" independently of us and our control, can be extremely frightening and threatening. That is why A.I. stories always turn out the same.

So in the case of Councilor Hamann, he is a product of the A.I. without even knowing he is product and creation of the A.I. Would he commit suicide if he found that he was trapped in a lie?? Good question.

Maul's Woman said:

So in the case of Councilor Hamann, he is a product of the A.I. without even knowing he is product and creation of the A.I. Would he commit suicide if he found that he was trapped in a lie?? Good question.

I guess that would depend upon whether he was inherently an Optimist, or a Pessimist?

... So (just out of curiosity) who (or what) is "Maul"?

True in many ways. Sometimes a pessimist is the most realistic of the two modes of thinking. A pessimist sees reality as it is. An optimist can always get severely CRUSHED by realities. Suicide can take many forms... willing and unwilling... in the forms of outright murdering oneself to going into a trance-like coma shock. Psychological breakdown is another and even some forms of severe depression brought on by extreme psychological shock to the system. Alcoholism and drug addiction brought on by the "shock".

Although every person, not just Councilor Hamann, in Zion would be a product of A.I. The question is how deeply is he affected by A.I. Where would he have been in A.I> never existed? Would he still be a Councilor, probably not. He could be just a nobody. So yes, it could be a bad thing that A.I came but also a good thing for him. but what about the others, it could be the opposite for them.

I am going to weigh in on The Serpent's side on this. I believe most parents do want their children to exceed the parent. I just had a child - not because I needed one to work on the farm or because of religon or an accident - and that is an option for more and more people these days. I want hime to have a better life than I did, and have already started sacrificing for him. (Dad waits a little longer for new shoes, so that the child can have them first.) That is why we build societies, try to improve our schools, etc.

Anyway, getting back to Councilor Hamann, I believe that he, of anyone could be the previous "One" - although I doubt anyone in any movie will be the previous "One." More likely, he knew him, (maybe as part of the intital generation) or knew someone who knew him.

I believe his speech to Neo was extremely prophetic and will be used in the next movie. Otherwise, why was it in the movie? Ultimately, Neo or all of the hero's will need to make a decision. Part of that decision will be to turn off the machines. The only problem is that if they turn off the machines, most/all the people hooked up to the Matrix are going to die. Their muscles are atrophied, they have no clothes, food or shelter. And there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of them. We need the machines, just as they need us. What we want, and what the fight is for, is power. We want to control the machines, instead of us being controlled by them.

Its not a question of personal station. Without the A.I. he would be his own man as much as could possibly be. Whether an important man or a gardener, he would be his own self and not a product of an artificial intelligence bent on keeping humanity subjugated and enslaved for it's own purposes and survival.

yes hew would be his own man, but he wouldn't be the same man, our experiences mold us into who we are, he would have been a different man then he is today if it wasn't for A.I.

Maul’s Woman said:
True in many ways. Sometimes a pessimist is the most realistic of the two modes of thinking. A pessimist sees reality as it is. An optimist can always get severely CRUSHED by realities.

I don’t think that Optimism or Pessimism have anything to do with Realism.

Optimism and pessimism have to do with what your default mode of operation is when you do not have sufficient information to make a decision. Based on incomplete information an Optimist assumes the best (most positive) outcome, and a pessimist assumes the opposite (most negative) outcome.

Suicide can take many forms... willing and unwilling... in the forms of outright murdering oneself to going into a trance-like coma shock. Psychological breakdown is another and even some forms of severe depression brought on by extreme psychological shock to the system. Alcoholism and drug addiction brought on by the "shock".

Unwilling Suicide? 😉

I think I understand what you are saying.

IJWTL said:
I believe his speech to Neo was extremely prophetic and will be used in the next movie. Otherwise, why was it in the movie? Ultimately, Neo or all of the hero's will need to make a decision. Part of that decision will be to turn off the machines. The only problem is that if they turn off the machines, most/all the people hooked up to the Matrix are going to die. Their muscles are atrophied, they have no clothes, food or shelter. And there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of them. We need the machines, just as they need us. What we want, and what the fight is for, is power. We want to control the machines, instead of us being controlled by them.

Yeah, this is why I don’t believe that the machines are ultimately going to turn out to be the villains. I think that the Councilor made that very clear in his talk with Neo on the engineering level.

Unwilling suicide... the mind shuts down in shock response to unnerving and horrendous outside realities.

Optimism and pessimism is not reality in itself, it is our response to outside realities. A personality trait inherent in us and we inherit from our forebears. It how we approach the real world.

How you respond to finding yourself in the matrix setting is based on your inherited psychological responses to the stresses of life around you.

something to consider:

Originally posted by TheOnlyAnomaly
Councillor.

He's a program that escaped the Matrix, Smith ain't the first. First of all, he has a voice that is the same as Hugo Weavings (Smith), Secondly... "I hate sleeping. I figured, I've slept the first eleven years of my life away, so now I'm just making up for it. "

Clarify.

It's possible, but that would mean he had to copy himself somehow? I think he was freed and he knows of the purpose of the one? You noticed how he wouldn't make a point to what he meant when he talked about the simbiotic relationship of man and machine.

if this is true, then maybe the councilor has been throught the last five constructs of the matrix. Maybe he is the one who released the first few. Maybe he has figured out how to beat the machines and wants to help the humans.

You get the idea, the possibilities are virtually endless at what this could mean.

i know this is an old post, but I'm bringing it back, and theres nothing you can do to stop me. 😄 anywho, You guys are missing an explanation that seems very logical. Perhaps hammand knows whats going on. Let me explain:

When Neo goes to the Architechs Techroom (😉) one of the first things he asks is "Why am I here?" which he is answered to with "You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed." Perhaps The previous Ones tell one person about when the One appears, and the machines start digging, that Zion will be destroyed, no matter what. And that the only chance for survival is Neo rebuilding it with the help of the machines, ergo returning to the source and such. Now think, the person the One tells before he dies is a high councler, and when that counceler is replaced, he tells his successor. They do not tell anyone because if they do, the One might not reach the source, and then humanity is ****ed... get my drift? So hammand pulls a Oracle on Neo, and sends him 'flying' in the direction that he needs to for the salvation of Zion. You can look at this theory and change it many ways, but I think thats pretty logical. Don't yoooou? *Points at the person reading this earily*

Okay, first of all, Homann is not the previous One, because that would require him to be, maybe 120 years old, probably closer to 130, 135. Second, Homann is not a machine, because only the Programs that have transcended the operation of the Matrix (Smtih, Oracle, Archie) have feelings, or are able to express the emotions of humans. Third, Homann is not the only human who knows that Humanity will survive only if humans and machines work together, neither is he the only "consciousness" that understands this, either. Fourth, I believe that Homann does not feel like Neo may take over his position, because he seems to talk to Neo like a fatherly figure, and he seems to have genuine interest in Neo and his abilities. Also, the anomalies no longer know what the Archie tells them, if he tells them at all, because their "code" is stripped and the "prime program is reinserted". If the previous anomalies knew, then they would most certainly have told anyone and everyone they met, and Zion would know they are the sixth Zion, and this would not facilitate the "function of the ONe", for if people know that they are gonna be killed anyway, why should they try to free any minds, they are safe in the Matrix. Also, if Homann knew, then the council would know, and they would try to devise a plan to work with the machines, not against them, doncha think?

you misunderstood me completely. I do not believe that Neo will take over for The person who the One tells about. I think hamman was the person who took over and learned this, and now that the one has appeared he knows he has to help guide him, otherwise all of humanity will be destroyed. If the word got out about Zion bein destroyed over and over, then what u said would happen, no one would be free'd, and then it'd lead to teh system crash and then, like i said, humanitys ****ed. why would hammand help neo and the neb be cleared if he didnt have a general conecption that Zion was going to be destroyed, and Neo couldnt be there, or it was all over for everything.

Homann believes in Neo, because he knows what Neo has done. Everyone will fall back on their beliefs at one time or another, and we see that Homann allows the Neb to leave, because he sees that there might be some truth to the prophecy.

"I believe our existence depends on more than how many ships we have"