Mace and Dooku vs Plagueis and Valk

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You mean like how his cnaonical superiors in yoda/sids did?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your sarcasm is noted, but doesn't change that
A. Dooku/Mace have objective out of universe quotes indicating their ability to compete with yoda/sids
B. Yoda/sids scale off of valk as his superiors even when we just talk about force power

C. If Yoda/Sids's powers aren't enough to stop dooku/mace from competing with them, then logically Valk's powers aren't enough either.

D. And if valk's powers aren't enough, then valk has to deal with mace and dooku as duelists, which off course, given his lack of a blade, he can't, the best valk can do is delay the inevitable and exhaust his force reserves deflecting strikes from mace or Dooku's blades untill he can do so no longer.

And at that point off course...

Valk dies

Can someone provide me the proof where Dooku/Mace are Valk's canonical superiors, because this is the first time I've heard about this.

Originally posted by Dispray
Can someone provide me the proof where Dooku/Mace are Valk's canonical superiors, because this is the first time I've heard about this.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16186643#post16186643

Originally posted by Dispray
Can someone provide me the proof where Dooku/Mace are Valk's canonical superiors, because this is the first time I've heard about this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They are not his superiors in canon.

And as the eu is based on the saga itself, the commentary of Lucas, the creator of the saga certainly has authority here

Load of crap.

Then debunk it.

Originally posted by Azronger
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16186643#post16186643

And there's the matter of vader who has been implied by feloni and sids himself to be better.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
They ARE his superiors be it canon or legends.

And as the eu is based on the saga itself, the commentary of Lucas, the creator of the saga certainly has authority here

Thankfully, George Lucas did not bother with the 'most powerful' nonsense in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then debunk it.

Palpatine clearly demonstrated his superiority to Count Dooku in strength when he put him in a choke-hold from across the breath of the galaxy (hologram being the gateway of contact in this case of-course). If Palpatine wanted to, he would have killed Count right then and there but how would he convince Anakin Skywalker to do his bidding afterwards?

You can cite as many quotes as you want, they don't circumvent the greater realities of the lore. Yoda and Palpatine - each would humiliate Count in a straightforward fight. Count himself realized as much.

Valkorion is even more deadly with Force powers. He will crush Count without breaking a sweat.

Mace Windu is also almost irrelevant here. People have taken his one-off performance against Palpatine at face value; several sources have clearly pointed out that Palpatine was faking his defeat in order to convince Anakin to join him.

Come on, anyone who thinks Mace and Dooku would win is only kidding himself/herself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
None of the sources offer a convincing case for it, period.

Thankfully, George Lucas did not bother with the 'most powerful' nonsense in Star Wars.

Yoda soundly countered any move of Count Dooku in Episode II. More importantly, Yoda had no intention of killing Count Dooku in a fight. Heck, Yoda did not issue a single offense with his Force powers against Count. Yoda attempted to subdue Count with his dueling skills (only) but this was not a sound decision on his part because Count's skills with a lightsaber were second to none and Yoda ended-up fighting Count on his strong points. You don't win a fight like that, easily.

Palpatine clearly demonstrated his superiority to Count Dooku in strength when he put him in a choke-hold from across the breath of the galaxy (hologram being the gateway of contact in this case of-course). If Palpatine wanted to, he would have killed Count right then and there but how would he convince Anakin Skywalker to do his bidding afterwards?

You can cite as many quotes as you want, they don't circumvent the greater realities of the lore. Yoda and Palpatine - each would humiliate Count in a straightforward fight. Count himself realized as much.

Valkorion is even more deadly with Force powers. He will crush Count without breaking a sweat.

Mace Windu is also almost irrelevant here. People have taken his one-off performance against Palpatine at face value; several sources have clearly pointed out that Palpatine was faking his defeat in order to convince Anakin to join him.

2. Yoda defeaing dooku hardly changes that dooku competed with him with the ladtest sources indicating they nearly stalemated. And as az's quote makes clear, regardless of whether yoda made use of force powers or not, he coulld not outright defeat dooku with them

3. Sids choking dooku when he had his defenses down doesn;t change anything. Your inability to accept canon is noted, but irrekevant,

4. Valk is a canonical inferior to both yoda and sids, even just talking in terms of force powers. If yoda can't do it, valk certainly can't

5. Whether he threw the fght is irrelevant, Sids gas lucas's own statement saying outright that mace can compete with the emperor

Originally posted by Petrus
Come on, anyone who thinks Mace and Dooku would win is only kidding himself/herself.

Anyone who thinks valk can outperform yoda here is just kidding hemself

Mace can only compete with Sidious using Vaapad. Which is massively circumstantial, and won't work on Valkorion at all, since the darkness needs to come from within oneself. As for Dooku, Yoda needed to "resort to his weapon" in order to fight a duel. I really don't see where the implication that he's ~ Yoda is coming from, since the quote never implied any parity between the two whatsoever.

Also, Valkorion's perfectly capable of beating Yoda, lmfao.

Originally posted by slayne
Mace can only compete with Sidious using Vaapad. Which is massively circumstantial, and won't work on Valkorion at all, since the darkness needs to come from within oneself. As for Dooku, Yoda needed to "resort to his weapon" in order to fight a duel. I really don't see where the implication that he's ~ Yoda is coming from, since the quote never implied any parity between the two whatsoever.

Also, Valkorion's perfectly capable of beating Yoda, lmfao.

1.

"The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon."

He couldn't outright defeat dooku without use of his blade in spite of him being 😖o "accomplished in every aspect of the force". Yoda couldn't outright defeat dooku with his force powers.

2. 😆 What part of, yoda is a equal.near equal for valk's canonical superior do you struggle to understand?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without."

Anyone who thinks valk can outperform yoda here is just kidding hemself

Uh, that's great? We still know Yoda > Dooku, so I don't see how that quote is relevant.

I'm not saying Dooku is not powerful, he's one of the most powerful ever.

But Plagueis is better, and Valkorion >> Dooku in the Force. So yeah.

It's relevant because it indicates that regardless of whether yoda is more powerful, the gap wasn't big enough for him to avoid a light saber fight.

So if yoda can't outright beat him with the force, then logically neither can his inferiors. And unlike yoda, valk can't beat dolly in a saber duel. All he can do is prolong the fight with tutaminis

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It's relevant because it indicates that regardless of whether yoda is more powerful, the gap wasn't big enough for him to avoid a light saber fight.

So if yoda can't outright beat him with the force, then logically neither can his inferiors. And unlike yoda, valk can't beat dolly in a saber duel. All he can do is prolong the fight with tutaminis

Yeah, except that Valkorion > Yoda in the Force.

And Yoda can beat Dooku with the Force. In case you didn't notice, he fleed, and their 'Force contest' was all about Yoda blocking and stopping everything Dooku sent him.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, except that Valkorion > Yoda in the Force.

And Yoda can beat Dooku with the Force. In case you didn't notice, he fleed, and their 'Force contest' was all about Yoda blocking and stopping everything Dooku sent him.

2. Dooku, fled after a saber duel. yoda's ability to block all of dooku's attacks is perfectly fine, but it doesn't at all mean dooku can't be close enough to yoda that yoda can't just take him out with tk. Given the quote, dooku is beyond yoda's ability to outright beat with powers. And as yoda is more powerful than valk(and yes, thanks to scaling he absolutely is), its illogical to think valk can do what yoda cna't

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valk solos.

If you say so

Yoda never even tried to defeat Dooku in the Force. He never threw an offensive attack (aside from sending Dooku's lightning back at him). Yoda was entirely reacting to what Dooku was doing.

Valkorion one-shotting Marr and Arcann is enough to put him quite decisively above Dooku, considering Dooku can't one-shot Arcann or Marr.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Whether you're convinced is utterly irrelevant. Sids's superiority even before rots is canonical fact

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Yoda defeaing dooku hardly changes that dooku competed with him with the ladtest sources indicating they nearly stalemated. And as az's quote makes clear, regardless of whether yoda made use of force powers or not, he coulld not outright defeat dooku with them

1. Yoda did not bring his powers to bear against Count Dooku during the fight.

2. Yoda simply shrug-off Dooku's attacks and remarked:

"Much to learn, you still have." (looks like Yoda was not impressed. Kinda embarrassing for Dooku, right?)

3. Yoda chose to disarm Dooku with his dueling skills but this didn't work out.

I don't give a damn about a quote in this case when I can draw conclusions from the more reliable source.

Dooku is not in the league of Yoda; Dooku will not be able to compete with Yoda, should the latter decide to eliminate him.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Sids choking dooku when he had his defenses down doesn;t change anything. Your inability to accept canon is noted, but irrekevant,

I entertain reason, not sweeping statements.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. Valk is a canonical inferior to both yoda and sids, even just talking in terms of force powers. If yoda can't do it, valk certainly can't

And Valkorion's combative strategy is much different from that of Yoda. Unlike the Jedi, Valkorion does not have a soft spot for Dooku and will not hold back.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
5. Whether he threw the fght is irrelevant, Sids gas lucas's own statement saying outright that mace can compete with the emperor