Mace and Dooku vs Plagueis and Valk

Lucas never specifies lightsaber combat, that is a qualification you've made up out of thin air. Indeed if mace can compete with the emperor, that means sid's incapable of just outright dominating him or taking him out with a force attack before he forces sids to engage in a duel. And if sids' powers aren't enough to put him beyond mace's ability to compete, then neither are Valk's. And unlike sids, valk can't compete with mace as a duelist. All valk can do his tire himself out with his tutaminis until he exhausts himself and mace finally strikes him down.

Then off course, Valk dies

Indeed if mace can compete with the emperor, that means sid's incapable of just outright dominating him or taking him out with a force attack

Sids throwing of the fight doesn't remotely contradict the notion that mace can compete with him. All it does is invalidate mace's "win". Hoever thats not remotely relevant here, as no one has been arguing mace can beat sids. As it is, mace doesn't need to be able to beat sids to beat valk. He simply needs to be able to compete with sids in spite of his superior powers. Becuase unlike sids, valk's powers are his only way of winning here. And off course, your headcanon notwithstanding, sids is more powerful than valk

Sids throwing of the fight doesn't remotely contradict the notion that mace can compete with him.

Hoever thats not remotely relevant here, as no one has been arguing mace can beat sids.

As it is, mace doesn't need to be able to beat sids to beat valk. He simply needs to be able to compete with sids in spite of his superior powers.

Becuase unlike sids, valk's powers are his only way of winning here. And off course, your headcanon notwithstanding, sids is more powerful than valk

Quotes often contradict each other - they need to be justified by feats in order to make them true, and vice versa. And Valkorion is ahead of RotS Sidious by a healthy margin in that department.

Originally posted by slayne
Yes, it does, and, as I said, Mace can only 'compete' in sabers through Vaapad. The novel makes it explicitly clear that that's the case.

I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying that Mace is utterly incapable of competing with Sidious in anything except sabers, and even that is circumstantial.

Which is countered by Sidious throwing the fight. Vaapad was the only reason he stood a sliver of a chance in sabers-only, and that was heavily circumstantial.

There are quotes putting even Vitiate above any version of Sidious, lmfao. So no, it really isn't 'headcanon' at all. But that's not what I'm arguing.

Quotes often contradict each other - they need to be justified by feats in order to make them true, and vice versa. And Valkorion is ahead of RotS Sidious by a healthy margin in that department.

No it doesn't. You can compete with someone and still have them throw a fight against you. Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Given that base mace is an "eight bordering 9", that puts him right below sids/anakin/yoda level, hence he can compete with him.

Also Lucas said nothing about mace only being able to compete with him in sabers. He said he can compete with him which would mean in general.

Originally posted by slayne
Yes, it does, and, as I said, Mace can only 'compete' in sabers through Vaapad. The novel makes it explicitly clear that that's the case.

I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying that Mace is utterly incapable of competing with Sidious in anything except sabers, and even that is circumstantial.

Which is countered by Sidious throwing the fight. Vaapad was the only reason he stood a sliver of a chance in sabers-only, and that was heavily circumstantial.

There are quotes putting even Vitiate above any version of Sidious, lmfao. So no, it really isn't 'headcanon' at all. But that's not what I'm arguing.

Quotes often contradict each other - they need to be justified by feats in order to make them true, and vice versa. And Valkorion is ahead of RotS Sidious by a healthy margin in that department.

Yea, yet again totally baseless. Lucas's comment aren't exclusive to dueling so to assume they are is bs.

Originally posted by slayne
Yes, it does, and, as I said, Mace can only 'compete' in sabers through Vaapad. The novel makes it explicitly clear that that's the case.

I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying that Mace is utterly incapable of competing with Sidious in anything except sabers, and even that is circumstantial.

Which is countered by Sidious throwing the fight. Vaapad was the only reason he stood a sliver of a chance in sabers-only, and that was heavily circumstantial.

There are quotes putting even Vitiate above any version of Sidious, lmfao. So no, it really isn't 'headcanon' at all. But that's not what I'm arguing.

Quotes often contradict each other - they need to be justified by feats in order to make them true, and vice versa. And Valkorion is ahead of RotS Sidious by a healthy margin in that department.

Additionally, there's absolutely no reason to think vapaad wouldn't be applicable her,e not that that's relevant because mace doesn't have to deal with valk as a duelist.

Originally posted by slayne
Yes, it does, and, as I said, Mace can only 'compete' in sabers through Vaapad. The novel makes it explicitly clear that that's the case.

I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying that Mace is utterly incapable of competing with Sidious in anything except sabers, and even that is circumstantial.

Which is countered by Sidious throwing the fight. Vaapad was the only reason he stood a sliver of a chance in sabers-only, and that was heavily circumstantial.

There are quotes putting even Vitiate above any version of Sidious, lmfao. So no, it really isn't 'headcanon' at all. But that's not what I'm arguing.

Quotes often contradict each other - they need to be justified by feats in order to make them true, and vice versa. And Valkorion is ahead of RotS Sidious by a healthy margin in that department.

❌ Valk's quotes of supremacy as of STWOR don't apply to Sidious who comes into existence millennia afterward.

There's no contradictions except the ones you makeup

Mace solos

Unless people are willing to defend Mace and Dooku individually being superior to Plagueis, I don't see how you can argue for Mace/Dooku individually being superior to Valk who really should only be very slightly below Plagueis (and only below him due to the Plagueis novel quote that Plagueis was the most powerful dark side user ever). Which only means that Plagueis has to be infinitesimally above Valk for the quote to remain valid. Therefore unless Mace and Dooku both are >= Plagueis, then team 2 isn't losing this fight.

If you ARE arguing that Mace>Plagueis and/or Dooku>Plagueis, I'd love to see the reasons why.

Way to miss the point nfactor. Valk may be right below plagueis as a FORCE USER. but he is a literal non-factor with the blade. Plagueis doesn't neccesarily have to be able to beat mace/dookuw ith the force to beat them

But Valk HAS to be able to take them out with the force to beat them

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Way to miss the point nfactor. Valk may be right below plagueis as a FORCE USER. but he is a literal non-factor with the blade. Plagueis doesn't neccesarily have to be able to beat mace/dookuw ith the force to beat them

But Valk HAS to be able to take them out with the force to beat them

Do you not believe that Plagueis could beat Mace/Dooku in a Force fight?

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Do you not believe that Plagueis could beat Mace/Dooku in a Force fight?

There's also a misconception going around that plagueis is right below yoda, he isn't. Plagueis was inferior to tpm sids, even before he kille dplagueis and grew in power as a result. Then sidious grew for 15 years(per visual dictionary).

Plagueis isn't yoda level

Either of team two solo.

Mace couldn't defeat Kar Vastor on his 'best day' and needed to go all-out to defeat an early Asajj Ventress.

An amped Darth Nyriss' lightning storm was easily handled by novel Revan who gets shit on by Valkorion, so Dooku gets ashed here too.

And no Kbro, your feeble hardcover accolade doesn't apply here either.

Honestly the only way Team One could win is in a sabers only bout.

Originally posted by slayne
Either of Team 2 solo in a stomp.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Either of team two solo.

Mace couldn't defeat Kar Vastor on his 'best day' and needed to go all-out to defeat an early Asajj Ventress.

An amped Darth Nyriss' lightning storm was easily handled by novel Revan who gets shit on by Valkorion, so Dooku gets ashed here too.

And no Kbro, your feeble hardcover accolade doesn't apply here either.

Honestly the only way Team One could win is in a sabers only bout.

1. Pre-prime mace. Not that it matters considering vasor has power on the scale of yoda someone canonically superior to valk, your fanfics aside. If anything, Mace;s ability to counter vastor's force chokes despite being hindered and pre prime is a nice indication that valk isn't going to be able to take mace out with his force powers:

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center-Vastor's point of Force contact-to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them..."

Shatterpoint

And of course, you forgot to mention mace didn't have a lightsaber here

Originally posted by AncientPower
Either of team two solo.

Mace couldn't defeat Kar Vastor on his 'best day' and needed to go all-out to defeat an early Asajj Ventress.

An amped Darth Nyriss' lightning storm was easily handled by novel Revan who gets shit on by Valkorion, so Dooku gets ashed here too.

And no Kbro, your feeble hardcover accolade doesn't apply here either.

Honestly the only way Team One could win is in a sabers only bout.

That's great for ventress. Doesn't do jack for valk though, especially considering his lack of a lightsaber

Originally posted by AncientPower
Either of team two solo.

Mace couldn't defeat Kar Vastor on his 'best day' and needed to go all-out to defeat an early Asajj Ventress.

An amped Darth Nyriss' lightning storm was easily handled by novel Revan who gets shit on by Valkorion, so Dooku gets ashed here too.

And no Kbro, your feeble hardcover accolade doesn't apply here either.

Honestly the only way Team One could win is in a sabers only bout.

What does nyriss have to do with dooku exactly?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Either of team two solo.

Mace couldn't defeat Kar Vastor on his 'best day' and needed to go all-out to defeat an early Asajj Ventress.

An amped Darth Nyriss' lightning storm was easily handled by novel Revan who gets shit on by Valkorion, so Dooku gets ashed here too.

And no Kbro, your feeble hardcover accolade doesn't apply here either.

Honestly the only way Team One could win is in a sabers only bout.

https://media.giphy.com/media/12IlujtqKeJLr2/giphy.gif

I'm sure you'll just ignore or disregard this Kbro, but it's worth a try.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
https://media.giphy.com/media/12IlujtqKeJLr2/giphy.gif

I'm sure you'll just ignore or disregard this Kbro, but it's worth a try.

Oh so valk can use tutaminis?
Impressive so can shaak ti
🙂

In seriousness, I've been aware of valk's ability to direct energy from his force reserves in absorbing the energy of a lightsaber blade for a while now. But eventually he's going to exhaust his own force reserves, and of course then

valk dies.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
https://media.giphy.com/media/12IlujtqKeJLr2/giphy.gif

I'm sure you'll just ignore or disregard this Kbro, but it's worth a try.

Anyhow, mace can compete with Sidious overall, the best you can argue for valk is that he might be able to compete with sids as a force user

No it doesn't. You can compete with someone and still have them throw a fight against you. Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Given that base mace is an "eight bordering 9", that puts him right below sids/anakin/yoda level, hence he can compete with him. Also Lucas said nothing about mace only being able to compete with him in sabers. He said he can compete with him which would mean in general.

Given that base mace is an "eight bordering 9", that puts him right below sids/anakin/yoda level,

Also Lucas said nothing about mace only being able to compete with him in sabers. He said he can compete with him which would mean in general

Yea, yet again totally baseless. Lucas's comment aren't exclusive to dueling so to assume they are is bs.

No it's not. Sidious throwing the fight doesn't mean that lace can't legitimately compete with him. It only means that mace didn't legitmately beat him. Additionally, there's absolutely no reason to think vapaad wouldn't be applicable her,e not that that's relevant because mace doesn't have to deal with valk as a duelist.

Valk's quotes of supremacy as of STWOR don't apply to Sidious who comes into existence millennia afterward. There's no contradictions except the ones you makeup

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
As Valk is a sith entity, yes it does

He's a Sith pureblood who became an entity. Oh and he hasn't had the title of Sith Lord before as Marka Ragnos had him skip that rank entirely. Nor does any of that matter considering that canonically he was never a Sith Lord in the first place. It was just another mask, as was Hego Damask and Sheev Palpatine.

Valkorion is the end product of the largest and most powerful dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.

Your fanfics don't hold together Kbro, now go back to CV where the other imbeciles reside.

Valkorion decimates worlds as a spirit, Mace can't even defeat a guy whose rage is basically a school yard tantrum compared to Vader's weakest incarnation.

You've got nothing, no argument, not a lick of logical analysis in that tiny thing you call a brain so don't even try arguing that laughable accolade with me boy.