Originally posted by SunRazer
Correction: Two or three versions feature Yoda disarming Sidious, which Lucas and Gillard confirm is a product of the environmental setting rather than Yoda being better. It's a fact that Yoda isn't more skilled.
Those 2 or 3 sources are pretty important ones. Ones directly written by Lucas, and no other source contradicts that either.
Where did Lucas confirm Yoda only disarmed Sidious due to the environment?
Gillard puts them on the same level, but even between levels there can be inferences.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Those 2 or 3 sources are pretty important ones. Ones directly written by Lucas, and no other source contradicts that either.Where did Lucas confirm Yoda only disarmed Sidious due to the environment?
Gillard puts them on the same level, but even between levels there can be inferences.
The novel's directly written by Lucas, and doesn't feature such a scene. The film intentionally leaves it ambiguous, almost certainly because, again, they decided to shift from having Yoda as the stronger one to Palpatine being stronger or them being equals.
Gillard has stated that between in a contest between level nines, there is no inherent difference in talent, just a matter of fighting styles and environmental advantages that decide the fight.
Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.
"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."
And we know that Sidious' fighting style is unbeatable as far as the film characters go, per Lucas (and Gillard):
"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."
There are further quotes from Gillard to support Lucas' own claim (not that it's necessary, of course), where he claims Sidious is better than Yoda in a way (this likely pertains to style).
Regardless, given that fights between level nines are decided solely by fighting styles and the environment, and we know you can't beat Sidious stylistically, it stands to reason that the environment is responsible for giving Yoda the edge he needed to disarm Palpatine.
Yep. It's from an Insider interview with Jamy Wheless, a member of the production crew for RotS (animator, IIRC, so he probably animated Yoda during the fight against Sidious).
Wheless' team worked out three key poses to tell the story:1) Yoda and Darth Sidious lock lightsabers
2) Yoda is forced back by Sidious' power, and grimaces in pain
3) Yoda uses all of his strength to push Sidious back
....
"The shot is only three seconds long, but it communicates to the audience that Yoda has met his match," he says.
-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And both Gillard and lucas have made clear that if there's a difference, it favors sids, not yoda
You keep saying that, but I've yet to see any such quote from Lucas, and the ones from Gillard are ambiguous at best.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The novel's directly written by Lucas, and doesn't feature such a scene. The film intentionally leaves it ambiguous, almost certainly because, again, they decided to shift from having Yoda as the stronger one to Palpatine being stronger or them being equals.
No, the novel was "edited" by Lucas. The script was directly written by him. Plus the script is almost exactly the same as the film. The book is not even close.
So clearly Lucas's vision is better portrayed in the script.
Not to mention the Novel really doesn't go into any specific moves regarding the fight. The junoir novel however confirms Yoda disarming Palpatine.
As for the Film leaving it "ambigous", either we believe the script where Yoda disarms Palpatine in the missing scene, or we believe Palpatine put his Saber away because he didn't favour his chances. Either way, Yoda looks better in the Saber match up.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Gillard has stated that between in a contest between level nines, there is no inherent difference in talent, just a matter of fighting styles and environmental advantages that decide the fight.
That does not mean they are exact equals, or that the split of wins and losses between them would be exactly 50/50.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And we know that Sidious' fighting style is unbeatable as far as the film characters go, per Lucas (and Gillard):
Per Gillard. Not Lucas.
And clearly he's not unbeatable. Just ask Mace Windu. You guys take hyperbole way too seriously when it comes to Sidious.
Originally posted by SunRazer
There are further quotes from Gillard to support Lucas' own claim (not that it's necessary, of course), where he claims Sidious is better than Yoda in a way (this likely pertains to style).
What claim from Lucas?
Originally posted by SunRazer
Regardless, given that fights between level nines are decided solely by fighting styles and the environment, and we know you can't beat Sidious stylistically, it stands to reason that the environment is responsible for giving Yoda the edge he needed to disarm Palpatine.
He never said "solely."
Which environment are you talking about? The senate pod. Because if you do or do not remember they fought on neutral ground first. Now either Palpatine fled to the senate pod because he wasn't fairing too well in the Saber fight, or we take the animatronics where Yoda forces Palpatine onto the Senate pod.
Your choice, but either way Yoda looks better in Sabers.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yep. It's from an Insider interview with Jamy Wheless, a member of the production crew for RotS (animator, IIRC, so he probably animated Yoda during the fight against Sidious).
No one's denying Yoda and Sidious are not on the same level. The question is if they're exact equals.
The film shows pretty much a stalemate until Yoda gets the worse fall.
But as far as Sabers go, both the script and junior novel confirm Yoda won that. The animatronics frankly shows Yoda kicking Sidious's butt in that department.
1. The novel was edited word-for-word by Lucas per Stover himself, and then personally approved of. That's not writing the novel per se, but that's basically like writing it. My wording was poor but the point stands. The novel, which features considerable influence from Lucas, doesn't involve the disarmament. Nor does the film, the prime source.
2. Nobody said anything about 50/50. You said that Yoda > Sidious, which the quotes disprove.
3. That was something Lucas said, though it's clear that Gillard agrees with him on the matter.
4. Mace beating Sidious had nothing to do with Sidious' fighting style, lol, especially when Mace's win in of itself is suspect.
5. Well, no, because between equals, or even near-equals, things like back and forths exist. Even AotC Obi-Wan and Anakin managed to drive Dooku back for a time. It's not outside the bounds of reason for Yoda to drive Palpatine into the podium, at which point environmental disadvantages kept Palpatine from driving Yoda back out.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No one's denying Yoda and Sidious are not on the same level. The question is if they're exact equals.The film shows pretty much a stalemate until Yoda gets the worse fall.
But as far as Sabers go, both the script and junior novel confirm Yoda won that. The animatronics frankly shows Yoda kicking Sidious's butt in that department.
The quote says Yoda met his match. It can't get any clearer than that. You're in denial.
The animatronics aren't even remotely valid, lol. They were posted here for entertainment and curiosity's sake, nothing more. They represent an extremely early version of the fight that was scrapped in favour of the one we saw in the final release of the film. Puzzling that you dismiss the RotS novel on the grounds of it being based off an earlier script but you're willing to throw those standards under the bus to use the animatronics because it supports your stance.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The novel was edited word-for-word by Lucas per Stover himself, and then personally approved of. That's not writing the novel per se, but that's basically like writing it. My wording was poor but the point stands. The novel, which features considerable influence from Lucas, doesn't involve the disarmament. Nor does the film, the prime source.
Line for line actually. It's still not on the same level as a source Lucas wrote from scratch and is pretty much identical to the film (the prime source as you put it).
The novel doesn't go into enough detail into the fight, but the junior novelisation confirms the disarmament.
The film doesn't show the disarming itself, but it doesn't contradict the script either and actually aligns with it given we don't see his Saber again.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Nobody said anything about 50/50. You said that Yoda > Sidious, which the quotes disprove.
I said in Sabers only. Not in the Force or in All-Out.
And that's going by multiple sources (one written by Lucas himself) claiming Yoda won the Saber fight, and nothing contradicting it.
Now seeing the early animatics (for Beni) I'm more convinced than ever that Lucas always had Yoda as the superior duelist.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. That was something Lucas said, though it's clear that Gillard agrees with him on the matter.
What did Lucas say exactly and where?
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Mace beating Sidious had nothing to do with Sidious' fighting style, lol, especially when Mace's win in of itself is suspect.
Your evidence of Sidious being >/= Yoda in Sabers was the quote that Sidious's style can't be beaten. And yet it was. That's my point.
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. Well, no, because between equals, or even near-equals, things like back and forths exist. Even AotC Obi-Wan and Anakin managed to drive Dooku back for a time. It's not outside the bounds of reason for Yoda to drive Palpatine into the podium, at which point environmental disadvantages kept Palpatine from driving Yoda back out.
Still kind of shows Yoda being in overall control of the Saber battle both on neutral ground and on the senate pod.
Also Yoda has an extremely high level Soresu mastery, so until we see him being driven back, we can't just assume he would be.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The quote says Yoda met his match. It can't get any clearer than that. You're in denial.
Not really. It shows Yoda's finally gone up against an actual peer. No need to read anymore into that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The animatronics aren't even remotely valid, lol. They were posted here for entertainment and curiosity's sake, nothing more. They represent an extremely early version of the fight that was scrapped in favour of the one we saw in the final release of the film. Puzzling that you dismiss the RotS novel on the grounds of it being based off an earlier script but you're willing to throw those standards under the bus to use the animatronics because it supports your stance.
Point is each source with Lucas's involvement shows Yoda winning the Saber match up.
I could say the same to you about dismissing sources much closer to the film (the script) in favor of the source you like (the novel, but excluding the junior novel), and yet now you want to completely throw out an earlier but more complete version of the fight on the basis that it differs in places from the film 😬
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not really. It shows Yoda's finally gone up against an actual peer. No need to read anymore into that.Point is each source with Lucas's involvement shows Yoda winning the Saber match up.
I could say the same to you about dismissing sources much closer to the film (the script) in favor of the source you like (the novel, but excluding the junior novel), and yet now you want to completely throw out an earlier but more complete version of the fight on the basis that it differs in places from the film 😬
The definition of "meet your match" is to meet an equal. As I said, you're in denial.
Except that's wrong. It doesn't happen in either the novel or the film, both of which carry Lucas' involvement and are actually canon sources (with the film being the prime source). And the junior novel didn't have Lucas' involvement.
At no point did I say I dismissed the junior novel.
I'm forgetting why we need to discuss this, though. I thought we were discussing that Yoda's disarmings of Palpatine were circumstantial and not a product of superiority?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Line for line actually. It's still not on the same level as a source Lucas wrote from scratch and is pretty much identical to the film (the prime source as you put it).The novel doesn't go into enough detail into the fight, but the junior novelisation confirms the disarmament.
The film doesn't show the disarming itself, but it doesn't contradict the script either and actually aligns with it given we don't see his Saber again.
Nope, Stover says: "I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."
And since you love the early animatics, it shows Sidious just running at first and still having his lightsaber during the segment of the duel that you claimed Sidious had already been disarmed by.
I said in Sabers only. Not in the Force or in All-Out.
Yeah, I'm talking about sabers as well.
And that's going by multiple sources (one written by Lucas himself) claiming Yoda won the Saber fight, and nothing contradicting it.Now seeing the early animatics (for Beni) I'm more convinced than ever that Lucas always had Yoda as the superior duelist.
Well, the early animatics featured Lucas' original vision of Yoda just being better than Palpatine overall, a concept entirely retconned by the actual canon.
What did Lucas say exactly and where?
This quote here:
"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."
That's obviously not a Gillard quote because the person there is referring to Gillard in third person, lol.
Your evidence of Sidious being >/= Yoda in Sabers was the quote that Sidious's style can't be beaten. And yet it was. That's my point.
Yeah, you're interpreting it like a donkey, that's why.
It doesn't mean anyone taking up Sidious' form is suddenly invincible. It's saying that between, say, two equals, fighting on neutral ground, Sidious' form isn't stylistically beaten by any of the others.
Mace's victory in of itself is suspect and doesn't change the quote's meaning whatsoever.
Still kind of shows Yoda being in overall control of the Saber battle both on neutral ground and on the senate pod.Also Yoda has an extremely high level Soresu mastery, so until we see him being driven back, we can't just assume he would be.
They both do. However, Yoda hasn't been shown using Soresu before (the defensive part against Dooku is explicitly noted by Legends sources to still be Ataru).
Originally posted by SunRazer
Correction: Two or three versions feature Yoda disarming Sidious, which Lucas and Gillard confirm is a product of the environmental setting rather than Yoda being better. It's a fact that Yoda isn't more skilled.
When did they confirm this? Yoda was flat out a better swordsman by the end of ROTS because Sidious didn't have his second saber. They say in one of TCWs interviews Sidious would have wanted to use both sabers against Yoda but couldn't because he lost one.
In Raw Swordsmanship:
Sidious using his preferred form (Jar'Kai)=Yoda>Vaapad Windu~One-Saber Sidious
Although if I had to pick who would win even with Jar'Kai I'd likely still pick Yoda.