EARLY VERSION of Yoda vs Sidious - INSANE!

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nope, Stover says: "I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."

That's great. But at this point I'm just finding it amusing that you can't see how George Lucas writing a script himself which is almost identical to his end product is a far better indicator of Lucas's vision than a novel which he edited and is completely different to the end product.

That said the novel doesn't go over all the specifics of the Saber fight (not even close), and the Junior novel confirms Yoda disarming him- All points you keep purposefully ignoring.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And since you love the early animatics, it shows Sidious just running at first and still having his lightsaber during the segment of the duel that you claimed Sidious had already been disarmed by.

Of course those parts which directly contradict the movie are not canon. But funny thing is those animatics are a hell of a lot closer to the movie than the majority of the novel.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, I'm talking about sabers as well.

Then you'd be wrong. There's literally Zero evidence Palpatine > Yoda in Sabers, but sufficient enough evidence to argue Yoda is > Palpatine. Of course the majority of evidence suggests a clear level of parity there.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, the early animatics featured Lucas' original vision of Yoda just being better than Palpatine overall, a concept entirely retconned by the actual canon.

Likewise I could argue the Novel's assertion that Yoda was clearly no match for Palpatine is entirely retconned by the film.

But again the animatics are far closer to the final product than the novel. And every version made directly by Lucas shows Yoda winning the Saber battle. Except perhaps the final version, but the final version doesn't actually contradict the script at all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
This quote here:

That's obviously not a Gillard quote because the person there is referring to Gillard in third person, lol.

LOL There's literally no evidence Lucas said that. There are others speaking in that conversation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, you're interpreting it like a donkey, that's why.

Says the guy whose making up his own Lucas quotes LMAO

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't mean anyone taking up Sidious' form is suddenly invincible.

Thanks for admitting your whole argument is basically moot, because nothing anywhere contradicts the notion that Yoda can and did disarm Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's saying that between, say, two equals, fighting on neutral ground, Sidious' form isn't stylistically beaten by any of the others.

Strange then why Palpatine would choose to take the fight away from neutral ground.

Unless of course Yoda forced him onto the pod as portrayed in the animatics.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mace's victory in of itself is suspect and doesn't change the quote's meaning whatsoever.

There's far more actual evidence that Yoda won the Saber fight against Sidious than there is of Palpatine throwing the Saber fight against Mace.

Especially given that the majority of the "suspect" part was during the Lightning exchange.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They both do. However, Yoda hasn't been shown using Soresu before (the defensive part against Dooku is explicitly noted by Legends sources to still be Ataru).

According to the novel and comic, Yoda was standing in the exact same spot deflecting all of Dooku's hits. There was nothing Ataru about that.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that Yoda's defenses are clearly exceptional.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
When did they confirm this?

Lucas has never said that. They're making that up.

Gillard however has stated that a fight between Level 9's can go either way depending on Environment and other factors. Of course if we go by that then it would be more evidence suggesting Mace's Saber victory over Palpatine was a legitimate one.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
They say in one of TCWs interviews Sidious would have wanted to use both sabers against Yoda but couldn't because he lost one.

It's here:

http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/the-lawless-trivia-gallery

Panel 3/10

Bored, so I'll post around here for a while again...

Originally posted by Lord Stark
When did they confirm this? Yoda was flat out a better swordsman by the end of ROTS because Sidious didn't have his second saber. They say in one of TCWs interviews Sidious would have wanted to use both sabers against Yoda but couldn't because he lost one.

In Raw Swordsmanship:
Sidious using his preferred form (Jar'Kai)=Yoda>Vaapad Windu~One-Saber Sidious

Although if I had to pick who would win even with Jar'Kai I'd likely still pick Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's here:

http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/the-lawless-trivia-gallery

Panel 3/10

lmfao Nowhere is it stated that he would want to use it against Yoda. Only that he couldn't since he lost one.

I'll reply to the rest later.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's great. But at this point I'm just finding it amusing that you can't see how George Lucas writing a script himself which is almost identical to his end product is a far better indicator of Lucas's vision than a novel which he edited and is completely different to the end product.

That said the novel doesn't go over all the specifics of the Saber fight (not even close), and the Junior novel confirms Yoda disarming him- All points you keep purposefully ignoring.

Purposefully ignoring what? You do realize my original post which triggered this discussion referenced the sources which show Yoda disarming him, right? All I'm saying is that I don't think it was always Lucas' intent as you claim, particularly because it doesn't happen in at least one moment.

The script is a guideline, and not a canon source like the novel is (back in the old Canon anyway), no matter what similarities it possesses with the film. The script and the film generally should be considered one source, as well, because they're basically the same — the script is the film in written form. But it doesn't really matter either way.

Of course those parts which directly contradict the movie are not canon. But funny thing is those animatics are a hell of a lot closer to the movie than the majority of the novel.

Indeed.

Then you'd be wrong. There's literally Zero evidence Palpatine > Yoda in Sabers, but sufficient enough evidence to argue Yoda is > Palpatine. Of course the majority of evidence suggests a clear level of parity there.

There's nothing wrong about what I said. They're equals; all I said is that Yoda being better isn't true.

As I said, Yoda's victory can be chalked down to environmental factors. Which invalidates the use of his showings as evidence that he's superior.

Likewise I could argue the Novel's assertion that Yoda was clearly no match for Palpatine is entirely retconned by the film.

Which doesn't change my point that Yoda isn't better. You're conflating what I said in my first post with Palpatine being better, which is something other sources have said, often after the fact.

But again the animatics are far closer to the final product than the novel. And every version made directly by Lucas shows Yoda winning the Saber battle. Except perhaps the final version, but the final version doesn't actually contradict the script at all.

Except in the animatics, Palpatine isn't disarmed at the point you claim him to be.

And even provided that is the case, the environment would still be a valid reason for dismissing the showing as circumstantial.

LOL There's literally no evidence Lucas said that. There are others speaking in that conversation.

Says the guy whose making up his own Lucas quotes LMAO

Lucas has never said that. They're making that up.

Others like who?

I don't have material on hand to confirm the speaker, so I'll drop the fact that it's from Lucas but that appears to be what it's like. Regardless, it's a valid source.

Thanks for admitting your whole argument is basically moot, because nothing anywhere contradicts the notion that Yoda can and did disarm Sidious.

My argument was that Yoda isn't better than Sidious, and it revolves around the use of environmental circumstances to dismiss Yoda's disarming of Sidious. I'm not visually defect; I'm fully capable of seeing what happens on-screen. Unfortunately for you, the fact that Yoda disarms Sidious in no way equates to him being better, especially if, again, level 9 fights are decided by the environment or style as opposed to whoever's outright better.

Strange then why Palpatine would choose to take the fight away from neutral ground.

Unless of course Yoda forced him onto the pod as portrayed in the animatics.

Perhaps because seeking advantageous ground is a logical thing to do if you're in a situation where neither you nor your opponent can win?

Or, again, Yoda drove him back as part of a back-and-forth (again, even AotC Obi-Wan while tired could drive Dooku back like that), and the Senate Podium disadvantaged Palpatine and prevented him from driving Yoda back out.

There's far more actual evidence that Yoda won the Saber fight against Sidious than there is of Palpatine throwing the Saber fight against Mace.

Especially given that the majority of the "suspect" part was during the Lightning exchange.

Depends on the source, again. Certainly not Gillard's rankings, which confirm that Mace's win was environmental again (notice how Sidious' fighting changes drastically after the window shatters and he's forced on the ledge). The novel also makes a point of this by mentioning that Sidious makes sacrifices by using the Force to give his feet grip on the slippery permacrete, which hinders his fighting. I don't believe the same is ever noted of Mace.

According to the novel and comic, Yoda was standing in the exact same spot deflecting all of Dooku's hits. There was nothing Ataru about that.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that Yoda's defenses are clearly exceptional.

That has nothing to do with it being Ataru or not, and sourcebooks do mention that Yoda dodges all of Dooku's attacks in an expert display of Ataru. Soresu is never once mentioned. You can be grounded and still use Ataru.

As for Yoda's exceptional defenses, that's obvious.

"He was standing still and blocking attacks, so he couldn't have been using Ataru."

...what? Do people actually think that every move of the martial art Ataru involves a flip, or that it's users can't block attacks without switching forms for some reason? 😂

Yoda's enslaved to form and isn't that great of a duelist. Only a duelist of Kas'm's caliber can properly switch forms