Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Nox

Originally posted by SunRazer
You told me my actions were wrong because there were enough (ie. too many) people already believing in Anakin being Yoda/Sidious tier and that it'd be unjust to keep pushing that down people's throats. Which is wrong, and now you're backtracking.

Here:

Clear as day, and no, it's not referring to potential because he already distinguishes that earlier on by referring to Anakin's potential as being more powerful than Palpatine, not equally powerful.

Is that why you said you regretted Ant and I spreading our Anakin wank over CV in your absence?

I'm not doing anything different on KMC, for the record.

I'll just get you bloody quotes:

Level 9 is essentially the cap. You're so good now that the only differences between you and another level 9 character are stylistic and environmental, not inherent.

A single person thinking that is too many. But among those who do place him on or around that level on CV are SFW, Kbro, bigsambino, JarJarBinks, Azronger, Diisciplus and a bunch of others.

Given the entire conversation is about potential and it's established that Sidious is around Anakin's level in potential power ( Anakin having the potential to be 80% of Sidious after having his power halved ) he's likely using it as a way of referencing that level of power. I'd need clarification from Lucas regarding the statement given how much he contradicts himself ( stating that Mace won the duel but that Sidious threw the fight, yeah, I know how we rationalize it but I can't imagine those rationalizations were ever his intent ).

I do regret that you did that via your thread as I mentioned in my last edit. If what you're saying about recent actions are true then I don't begrudge you for "most" of your actions.

Yes you are. You're contributing to the atmosphere of "Anakin is god and comparable to Sidious/Yoda" here.

Doesn't seem like it's in reference to power but rather skill.

1. So Gillard and Lucas thinking that is too many? More confirmation that you're flat-out in denial.

How about just having intelligent discourse with the points for once instead of trying to criminalize viewpoints and act like it's a sin?

2. I answered that already. It's not potential because Lucas already mentioned that and described Anakin's potential as ECLIPSING Palpatine's power, not equalling it. So when he says that Anakin's just as strong, he's referring to Anakin in the now, not the future. Not to mention that Anakin being as strong as Sidious still aligns with Palpatine saying that he hadn't surpassed him yet.

Again, you're making excuses.

Mace winning the duel and Sidious throwing the fight aren't contradictory at all. Silver literally dissected that quote in his blog; Lucas isn't even saying that Mace won legit.

3. Anakin is god? You're full of shit. I don't pretend he's invulnerable and frequently support the notion that others can exploit his state of mind via TP, something that Ant also does. In fact, I argued something of the sort on CV recently with Valkorion. And as I said, there's no difference between KMC and CV other than the fact that users here assume each other to be more knowledgeable, so they skip the basics when explaining things.

Doesn't seem like it's in reference to power but rather skill.

Yeah, of course it's ****ing referring to lightsaber combat. I just told you that the levels that Gillard brings up are in reference to saber combat only. That's been known for years. Jesus Christ. You don't even know what we're talking about. You're so far behind that you shouldn't even be discussing this stuff.

How on earth can you criticize the Anakin wank movement so much and yet have no idea what their evidence says or doesn't say? You've just destroyed your own credibility. This entire thread you've shown that you don't even know what I'm talking about, and yet you're telling me I don't understand what I'm doing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I didn't twist anything. I was referring to Anakin being on Sidious and Yoda's level as a swordsman there the whole time, so either you couldn't keep up with the discussion or you're being disingenuous. Don't threaten me when you're not even following the discussion. The part where I was mentioning tier 9 was explicitly in reference to swordsmanship, since those rankings are only in relation to bladework. Just take a look at it again:

You can see that the entire paragraph is about him as a swordsman, not in terms of Force powers mid-combat or anything else. I'm not here to repeat myself; either you read and follow what I say or **** off. Don't misinterpret what I say and then blame me for twisting it and threaten me.

2. Anakin isn't nearly as popular as Revan. You're deluded if you think that. A sizable portion of CV's community has only just begun to appreciate Anakin at all; certainly not back when I made the thread.

3. "Counter rampant wank"? I made that thread because most people didn't know of or didn't care about most of that stuff at that point. You're completely in denial and you're just making nonsensical excuses for what's completely inexcusable conduct. You don't shit on anyone's respect thread with piles of out-of-context, irrelevant low showings, full stop. That's disrespectful and rude to the user who posted the blog as well. You might think it's just shit and giggles but it's offensive. People put hard work into showing why a character should be where he is and you just throw sludge bombs of low showings because you can't stand the sight of the character being ranked that way. There's no possible way you can justify what you did in that thread and you know it: what you did was wrong, period. That's all there is to it, and you can't even own up to that.

1. How was I being "disingenuous?" Lmao. I'll threaten you with ending the conversation whenever I want as that's my right. I don't have to continue a discussion with someone I feel is being disrespectful. And I'm saying that Anakin's augmentation is related to his ability to his employable power and therefore he may be T9 but he shouldn't be on Yoda or Sidious's level as a swordsman. Yes, there are outliers like Kas'im but given the difference in employable power we've seen in regards to energy projection from Sidious/Yoda in comparison to Anakin I don't feel it would matter.

If you can't understand that energy projection is related to level of physical augmentation then that's your fault, not mine.

2. Certainly more popular then the lesser characters that have been wanked successfully; the Ancients. The difference between him and other wanked semi popular characters like; Kun and Krayt are that their wank was generally denied by the public.

3. I respect your compilation of those feats/quotes. I felt what I had to do was necessary and I didn't mean to offend you in the process. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. How was I being "disingenuous?" Lmao. I'll threaten you with ending the conversation whenever I want as that's my right. I don't have to continue a discussion with someone I feel is being disrespectful. And I'm saying that Anakin's augmentation is related to his ability to his employable power and therefore he may be T9 but he shouldn't be on Yoda or Sidious's level as a swordsman. Yes, there are outliers like Kas'im but given the difference in employable power we've seen in regards to energy projection from Sidious/Yoda in comparison to Anakin I don't feel it would matter.

If you can't understand that energy projection is related to level of physical augmentation then that's your fault, not mine.

2. Certainly more popular then the lesser characters that have been wanked successfully; the Ancients. The difference between him and other wanked semi popular characters like; Kun and Krayt are that their wank was generally denied by the public.

3. I respect your compilation of those feats/quotes. I felt what I had to do was necessary and I didn't mean to offend you in the process. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

1. I said you were EITHER misinterpreting me or disingenuous, and I left it open as to what it was. Because you just weren't following me. And yeah, it's your right to threaten to cut off the discussion; it's equally your right to make yourself look ****ing stupid. So I'll leave you to it.

That's an appeal to ignorance; absence of evidence and evidence of absence are not the same. The only time Anakin is actually anywhere close to where the "wank" puts him at is during his duel with Dooku, where he displays level 9 fighting prowess but just doesn't use TK at all, and during Knightfall, which is primarily off-screen so we don't actually know most of what he did there except for utterly annihilating Drallig, again a level 9 performance. It all reconciles perfectly. We just never really get an opportunity to see him use TK during his prime moments. However, we do get a glimpse of what he can do in LoE when his Force Scream (where he seems to have involuntarily tapped into the dark side for a moment) brings down the 90 x 30 metre dome.

Energy projection and augmentation are only loosely comparable, not directly, or else Obi-Wan would be much closer to Dooku in TK. That's just a thing you made up to fill in the holes in your own views, nothing more. You passing it off as if it's unequivocal fact is hilarious. You are aware that Force users practice different areas of the Force and master them each to varying degrees, yes? It's not uniform across the board.

2. The Ancients were immensely popular back in the day and the wank was really just a short-lived way of countering the "featless" nonsense. You'll notice they're not nearly as "wanked" anymore. Kun and Krayt are more widely accepted in the community than Anakin.

3. I'm sorry you're still in denial; that's all. You're telling yourself that your act there was just when you know that doing that on any other respect thread would be completely wrong.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. So Gillard and Lucas thinking that is too many? More confirmation that you're flat-out in denial.

How about just having intelligent discourse with the points for once instead of trying to criminalize viewpoints and act like it's a sin?

2. I answered that already. It's not potential because Lucas already mentioned that and described Anakin's potential as ECLIPSING Palpatine's power, not equalling it. So when he says that Anakin's just as strong, he's referring to Anakin in the now, not the future. Not to mention that Anakin being as strong as Sidious still aligns with Palpatine saying that he hadn't surpassed him yet.

Again, you're making excuses.

Mace winning the duel and Sidious throwing the fight aren't contradictory at all. Silver literally dissected that quote in his blog; Lucas isn't even saying that Mace won legit.

3. Anakin is god? You're full of shit. I don't pretend he's invulnerable and frequently support the notion that others can exploit his state of mind via TP, something that Ant also does. In fact, I argued something of the sort on CV recently with Valkorion. And as I said, there's no difference between KMC and CV other than the fact that users here assume each other to be more knowledgeable, so they skip the basics when explaining things.

Yeah, of course it's ****ing referring to lightsaber combat. I just told you that the levels that Gillard brings up are in reference to saber combat only. That's been known for years. Jesus Christ. You don't even know what we're talking about. You're so far behind that you shouldn't even be discussing this stuff.

How on earth can you criticize the Anakin wank movement so much and yet have no idea what their evidence says or doesn't say? You've just destroyed your own credibility.

1. What are you even talking about? I said that I think there's too many.

If you like.

2. Remind me, was this the RotS or RotJ commentary? If it's the RotJ commentary then it could still be referring to potential power considering Sidious's drain of Byss.

3. And get straight to the triumphant declarations of his supremacy.

I'm unsure because you and the quotes about the tiers/levels themselves seem to be contradictory. You understand that technical skill is not the whole of lightsaber combat but rather one half of it with the other half being augmentation. Are these tiers in regards to overall lightsaber combat or just "skill."

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I said you were EITHER misinterpreting me or disingenuous, and I left it open as to what it was. Because you just weren't following me.

That's an appeal to ignorance; absence of evidence and evidence of absence are not the same. The only time Anakin is actually anywhere close to where the "wank" puts him at is during his duel with Dooku, where he displays level 9 fighting prowess but just doesn't use TK at all, and during Knightfall, which is primarily off-screen so we don't actually know most of what he did there except for utterly annihilating Drallig, again a level 9 performance. It all reconciles perfectly.

Energy projection and augmentation are only loosely comparable, not directly, or else Obi-Wan would be much closer to Dooku in TK. That's just a thing you made up to fill in the holes in your own views, nothing more. You passing it off as if it's unequivocal fact is hilarious.

2. The Ancients were immensely popular back in the day and the wank was really just a short-lived way of countering the "featless" nonsense. You'll notice they're not nearly as "wanked" anymore. Kun and Krayt are more widely accepted in the community than Anakin.

3. I'm sorry you're still in denial; that's all. You're telling yourself that your act there was just when you know that doing that on any other respect thread would be completely wrong.

1. No, you weren't following ME as I just explained.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't think his performance against Dooku is indicative that he has similar levels of augmentation to either Yoda or Sidious either. If he did then I'd be happy to assume he's near Sidious/Yoda level like the rest of you. But I don't. This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

I never said it was an unequivocal fact. I said that they generally line up with each other with there being exceptions such as Kas'im and, yes, Kenobi. It tends not to matter when Anakin's augmentation even at its best is still inferior to Sidious and Yoda's and he has no comparable energy manipulation feats.

2. And they're not wanked to the level he is. Not as successfully as Anakin anyways.

3. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm sorry you got offended by my actions.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

I'm unsure because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You understand that technical skill is not the whole of lightsaber combat but rather one half of it with the other half being augmentation. Are these tiers in regards to overall lightsaber combat or just "skill."

There's literally nothing specifying it to be only technical skill or physical augmentation.

But keep making excuses

1. Well, you said one person thinking that is one too many. Gillard and Lucas think that, so I guess we're already two overboard?

2. It's a separate interview and it's clearly referring to them as of RotS. Can you just stop ****ing around and accept stone-cold facts when they're presented to you? There's no way it's referring to ****ing potential because I showed you the difference in the way he talks about potential in the same interview. He talks about Anakin being more powerful than Sidious when he discusses potential, so when he talks about him being "as strong as" the Emperor he's clearly not talking about potential. Not to mention that if you paid attention to the quote, Lucas is referring to events that have already passed, not things that are yet to be. So Anakin being just as strong as Sidious refers to RotS, not potential. You're just so in denial that it's hilarious. You've entered the discussion with preconceived notions of Anakin not being on par with Sidious, so no matter what I say or show you, you'll just try to find your way out of it because you can't accept it. So there's really no point in us continuing this any further; we may as well agree to disagree.

Sidious' draining shit is EU-introduced, not relevant to the movies where Lucas' claim has to be able to stand on its own. EU explanations have to work around the movies, not the other way around. Secondly there's no way Sidious' drain makes up for Anakin being 200% of Sidious, if you really think it's referring to potential.

3. It's referring to overall lightsaber combat, yes.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. No, you weren't following ME as I just explained.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't think his performance against Dooku is indicative that he has similar levels of augmentation to either Yoda or Sidious either. If he did then I'd be happy to assume he's near Sidious/Yoda level like the rest of you. But I don't. This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

Anakin was devastating Dooku even moreso than Yoda was. How is that not at least equal augmentation?

Sidious didn't blitz Mace at all. We clearly see Mace reacting before Sidious could even land the first blow, so he obviously wasn't blitzed. The quotes about him "not realizing what happened" are clearly hyperbole unless you think he and Kit were fighting Palpatine without even realizing it. As for Sidious striking down Agen and Saesee before Mace could do anything, we clearly see Mace retreating in response to Palpatine doing the spin attack, which is why he was too far away to stop Palpatine from gutting Kolar. After that, Palpatine moves AWAY from him to strike Saesee, meaning that even if Mace was moving in now he had no way of stopping that from happening.

Yes, Sidious is faster, but not by enough of a margin to blitz Mace, lol. That's ridiculous. Yoda couldn't blitz Dooku, and they're about on par with Sidious and Mace respectively.

I never said it was an unequivocal fact. I said that they generally line up with each other with there being exceptions such as Kas'im and, yes, Kenobi. It tends not to matter when Anakin's augmentation even at its best is still inferior to Sidious and Yoda's and he has no comparable energy manipulation feats.

So you're willing to have Kas'im and Obi-Wan serve as exceptions but not Anakin? Wow. More double standards and denial.

2. And they're not wanked to the level he is. Not as successfully as Anakin anyways.

Anakin's wanked to that level because he deserves to be per fact and fiat; it's that simple.

Let's just look at this objectively: some people think that it's right for Anakin to be there, some people don't. And now you're trying to criminalize the viewpoints of the former and act like it's a sin to think that. What you're looking for amounts to suppression of thought/speech. You don't like it so you want it to be eradicated.

3. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm sorry you got offended by my actions.

Yeah, we do have to agree to disagree because you're so in denial that you need therapy. You're acting like it's only me that'd be offended by something like that. If you made an RT and I spammed dozens of low showings in the comments section that aren't even relevant, I can assure you that you wouldn't be anywhere near as laid back as you are now.

1. Very funny.

2. I'm just trying to understand the intent behind the quotes that might help to explain the depicted inconsistencies. You're right though, that if it didn't have the context of referencing the Emperor by a certain point it can't refer to overall potential power. While the quote would be inaccurate in regards to RotS Anakin given his performance against Dooku and what Sidious is capable of against a baseline Mace ( also invalidating the quote regarding the tier system ) I can't actively prove it untrue in regards to Knightfall Anakin who's confirmed to be more powerful and thus I have to acknowledge that KFV = Sidious.

It is relevant. While Lucas's word supersedes the EU we have to assume he's working with the EU when making these statements. It may or may not. Btw the math would place Anakin at 160% of Palpatine not 200%.

3. Then remind me. Was it you or another who tried to claime baseline Mace was on T9? Because if it was you, then I don't quite understand how you reconcile Sidious being able to blitz him and the quote stating T9's are on the level when only environmental or stylistic advantages change the outcome of the fight.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sidious never blitzed or showcased the ability to blitz baseline mace. Mace not being able to save his friends doesn't mean mace can blitz him. Even when facing an equal in combat, its considerably hard to defend fodder alongside you

Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.

2. It's referring to them as of RotS. So you're in agreement, yes?

3. Baseline Mace would be on the border. And no, he isn't being blitzed by Sidious, Christ. I explained that above in my last post. He clearly reacts by stepping backward as Sidious does the Sheev spin, and that's the primary reason that he's unable to stop Agen from being struck down. Then Saesee dies because Sidious spins away from Mace to kill him, so Mace being on the other side would naturally have no way to stop that. I mean, even Kit Fisto was able to fight Palpatine, unless you think Fisto's faster than Mace.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.

The "before he realized what was happening" quotes are obvious hyperbole, lol. We see Mace fighting Sidious alongside Kit for a moment before Kit dies; unless you think that Mace didn't even realize he was fighting Sidious, then the quote's just hyperbolically saying that Mace was astonished by how quickly Sidious was attacking.

I mean, it literally says that Palpatine struck down Kolar, Tiin and Fisto before Mace knew what was happening, yet in both the film and novel (and the comic, IIRC), we have Mace fighting Sidious before Kit dies. So unless Mace didn't even know that he was fighting Sidious, then yeah, the quote is clearly hyperbole.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.

Mace is very clearly reacting to sids parrying multiple strikes

Hyperbole is Hyperbole

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin was devastating Dooku even moreso than Yoda was. How is that not at least equal augmentation?

Sidious didn't blitz Mace at all. We clearly see Mace reacting before Sidious could even land the first blow, so he obviously wasn't blitzed. The quotes about him "not realizing what happened" are clearly hyperbole unless you think he and Kit were fighting Palpatine without even realizing it. As for Sidious striking down Agen and Saesee before Mace could do anything, we clearly see Mace retreating in response to Palpatine doing the spin attack, which is why he was too far away to stop Palpatine from gutting Kolar. After that, Palpatine moves AWAY from him to strike Saesee, meaning that even if Mace was moving in now he had no way of stopping that from happening.

Yes, Sidious is faster, but not by enough of a margin to blitz Mace, lol. That's ridiculous. Yoda couldn't blitz Dooku, and they're about on par with Sidious and Mace respectively.

So you're willing to have Kas'im and Obi-Wan serve as exceptions but not Anakin? Wow. More double standards and denial.

Anakin's wanked to that level because he deserves to be per fact and fiat; it's that simple.

Let's just look at this objectively: some people think that it's right for Anakin to be there, some people don't. And now you're trying to criminalize the viewpoints of the former and act like it's a sin to think that. What you're looking for amounts to suppression of thought/speech. You don't like it so you want it to be eradicated.

Yeah, we do have to agree to disagree because you're so in denial that you need therapy. You're acting like it's only me that'd be offended by something like that. If you made an RT and I spammed dozens of low showings in the comments section that aren't even relevant, I can assure you that you wouldn't be anywhere near as laid back as you are now.

Personally I don't feel Yoda was at his peak until RotS given his struggle with lifting mildly heavy objects and his inability to lift all of the Muntuur stones. Whether it was the war or something else that revitalized his abilities in this regard I cannot say but that's my stance on the matter.

I didn't say he blitzed him. I said he's capable of blitzing him. Mace moved back and lifted his blade into a defensive position while Sidious cut down Tiin and Kolar. While Mace might be able to react to him he would definitely have been overwhelmed nearly immediately had Sidious not needed to keep him alive to turn Anakin.

Read my first response in regards to Yoda/Dooku.

When there's nothing to suggest that Anakin's exception, yes.

I disagree. Which is why I combat his wank more strongly then others.

Yes.

Maybe, but then I probably wouldn't wank an already overwanked character. 🙂

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It's referring to them as of RotS. So you're in agreement, yes?

3. Baseline Mace would be on the border. And no, he isn't being blitzed by Sidious, Christ. I explained that above in my last post. He clearly reacts by stepping backward as Sidious does the Sheev spin, and that's the primary reason that he's unable to stop Agen from being struck down. Then Saesee dies because Sidious spins away from Mace to kill him, so Mace being on the other side would naturally have no way to stop that. I mean, even Kit Fisto was able to fight Palpatine, unless you think Fisto's faster than Mace.

2. Knightfall Anakin, yes. Any other version, no.

3. I hadn't read your last post before making my response, though it didn't change my mind on anything. I never claimed he couldn't react. Simply that he'd be blitzed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The "before he realized what was happening" quotes are obvious hyperbole, lol. We see Mace fighting Sidious alongside Kit for a moment before Kit dies; unless you think that Mace didn't even realize he was fighting Sidious, then the quote's just hyperbolically saying that Mace was astonished by how quickly Sidious was attacking.

I mean, it literally says that Palpatine struck down Kolar, Tiin and Fisto before Mace knew what was happening, yet in both the film and novel (and the comic, IIRC), we have Mace fighting Sidious before Kit dies. So unless Mace didn't even know that he was fighting Sidious, then yeah, the quote is clearly hyperbole.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4(1:09)

Mace is very clearly reacting to sids parrying multiple strikes

Hyperbole is Hyperbole

Neither you or Nova seem to understand that a character may be able to react to another character but still be blitzed.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Additionally in the novelization sids catches the jedi off guard

If you think the Jedi lowered their guard simply because Palpatine told Tiin to read his mind you're more foolish then I thought.