Debunking the Dooku Myth

All of these quotes are misleading because they suggest that Yoda actively fought Dooku in a Force matchup. This is false.

Not really.

Yoda only unleashed one attack at Dooku's direction, and such attack was the power of Dooku redirected back at him. Thus, the second source is irrelevant given Yoda never actively tried to best Dooku with the Force.

Doesn't really matter, since the fact that he didn't means it either wasn't within his ability or tendency to finish the fight that way.

Further, the third source is actually inaccurate and therefore can be dismissed as such, since Yoda never directed any telekinetic assault at Dooku.

Nope, the quote only specifies that the two fighters tried to defeat one another with the Force, and that the match included displays of telekinesis.

"Count Dooku hurls Force-Lightning at Yoda, but Yoda easily deflects the attack (Attack of the Clones Photo Comic)."

There's another quote that says it wasn't easy.

"He twisted machinery from the walls and threw it at Yoda with the power of the dark side. Yoda batted the objects aside with little effort, casting away his cane to stand tall as he did so (Star Wars Fact Files)."

Dooku wasn't exactly doubling over in exhaustion either.

Otherwise, the source would feature such a blatant contradiction that it should be completely dismissed anyway.

Or I could dismiss you instead.

Secondly, Yoda and Dooku being close in the Force would not make sense due to Palpatine's established vast superiority to Dooku (since over a dozen sources state Yoda is Palpatine's equal):

And other sources say Sidious is better.

To state that Dooku is comparable to Yoda is blatantly inconsistent given Yoda's ease handling Dooku's lightning and the vast distinction between their fight and Yoda's fight with Palpatine.

Not really. Yoda tried and failed to capture/kill Dooku twice. That alone opens the door for comparisons to be drawn between them, your objections aside.

Only the most powerful Jedi who ever lived can spank Dooku whenever he feels like it. Make way. 🙂

Originally posted by NewGuy01
the most powerful Jedi

Can't argue there, TBH. There's cooler pics of Anakin to use though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Doesn't really matter, since the fact that he didn't means it either wasn't within his ability or tendency to finish the fight that way.

For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it wouldn't fit within the character of Yoda and would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

Nope, the quote only specifies that the two fighters tried to defeat one another with the Force, and that the match included displays of telekinesis.

That's a streeetch.

There's another quote that says it wasn't easy.

There's more that says it was easy (aka my point). 👆

Dooku wasn't exactly doubling over in exhaustion either.

Doesn't have to be.

And other sources say Sidious is better.

Irrelevant.

Not really. Yoda tried and failed to capture/kill Dooku twice. That alone opens the door for comparisons to be drawn between them, your objections aside.

Same with Ventress. 😉

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it wouldn't fit within the character of Yoda and would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

That's a streeetch.

[/b]

There's more that says it was easy (aka my point). 👆

[/b]

Doesn't have to be.

[/b]

Irrelevant.

[/b]

Same with Ventress. 😉 [/B]

there is a sizable disparity between (tcw)maul and dooku, as their respective performances vs grievous, yoda/sidous, and off course Kenobi make incredibly obvious. people whoa rgue tcw maul isn't well below dooku are simply delusional.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it wouldn't fit within the character of Yoda and would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

That's a streeetch.

[/b]

There's more that says it was easy (aka my point). 👆

[/b]

Doesn't have to be.

[/b]

Irrelevant.

[/b]

Same with Ventress. 😉 [/B]

Nope, one quote isn't > multiple. You've provided a whopping total of one quote, a realtively old one at that, that says yoda beat dooku easily.

Defending an attack easily isn't the same as beating someone easily ant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it wouldn't fit within the character of Yoda and would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

That's a streeetch.

[/b]

There's more that says it was easy (aka my point). 👆

[/b]

Doesn't have to be.

[/b]

Irrelevant.

[/b]

Same with Ventress. 😉 [/B]

For what you're arguing yes he does.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it wouldn't fit within the character of Yoda and would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

That's a streeetch.

[/b]

There's more that says it was easy (aka my point). 👆

[/b]

Doesn't have to be.

[/b]

Irrelevant.

[/b]

Same with Ventress. 😉 [/B]

Kinda like all this blog.

100% sure my post was directed at Sasukedc, kek.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
100% sure my post was directed at Sasukedc, kek.

Respond to my post, Ant

Originally posted by Azronger
Respond to my post, Ant

That's a streeetch.

Only if you can't read. Well, nevermind; I suppose we'll just go with it not being a stretch to assume the writers never saw Attack of the Clones.

Doesn't have to be.

It does for your point to be relevant. Yoda not struggling hardly implicates superiority if Dooku didn't either.

Same with Ventress. 😉

Thanks for providing the counter for your first point:

For one, refer to my new thread on how telekinesis works in Canon. Yoda forcing Dooku into submission wouldn't really fit with the existing continuity.

More importantly, it would create a rather large gap between Dooku and Maul.

...pfft. 😆

Originally posted by NewGuy01
[B{

...pfft. 😆 [/B]

It was a below the belt. ❌

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was a below the belt. ❌

sneer

But seriously, why are you making a gif to a version of maul who has nothing tying himself to being dooku's inferior and his showing vs a version of kenobi who also has nothing tying himself to being dooku's inferiOR?

Here are some more fitting videos:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=59s (Maul "outmatches" an injured TCW Kenobi)
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m6s (Maul "outmatches" an injured TCW Kenobi again)

https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m22s (Dooku actually outmatches season 6 Kenobi)
https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m46s (Dooku actually outmatches a fresh ROTS Kenobi)

Clearly there's no gap between maul and dooku

Originally posted by |King Joker|
You can do better, Sas. 🙁

Irrelevant points don't deserve better counters. I offer no apology.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Irrelevant points don't deserve better counters. I offer no apology.

Yeah, not sure how serious we are now but Yoda easily repelling the objects Dooku hurled at him means the square root of jack shit, seeing as even ESB Luke could repel Vader's telekinetically hurled objects. Telekinetic missiles aren't a full indicator of one's power, lol. That Yoda didn't attack back could just as easily be a sign that he couldn't overpower the Count?

Regarding the Lightning quotes, are the first two canon (because the argument was made for Legends)? As for LoE, that contradicts the AotC novel, and as you said in the other thread source material usually takes precedence with later quotes not necessarily being a retcon and potentially being just contradictions. In this case, the LoE quote has none of the components of a retcon and is a subjective quote, so it stands to reason that the AotC novel takes precedence. And that one has Yoda absorbing the Count's Lightning far from easily.

On the lightsaber fight, you gave us quotes saying Dooku lost and was outmatched, none saying that he wasn't able to hold his own against Yoda. As for the junior novel, comic and script, they all depict older versions of the fight (ie. Yoda not going on the offensive in the junior novel, Dooku drawing a second saber in the comic, etc) while the film appears to be the "final version" they settled on, with the novel reflecting that most closely. A variety of objective supplementary sources after the fact suggest that Dooku could contend with Yoda, making it clear that the latter portrayal is the most accurate (film versions are always top priority anyways). That Tyranus lost the fight and nearly died doesn't change the fact that he held his own in the process, a fact reiterated by Yoda himself across all of these sources (even the comic and junior novel). Do we not remember Yoda himself telling Dooku that "Fought well, you have"?

I'm aware that this gets out of hand when you start arguing that Dooku can shit on Revan or beat Valkorion in a Force contest, but for all intents and purposes the argument is designed to show first and foremost not just that Dooku can stand up to Yoda but that we all exaggerate the gaps between most characters in general. And for all the claims of "PT wank" being out of hand, I think it's a fair movement given what we've seen in the past. Like, Revan is not ragdolling Dooku or "annihilating him in Force" with a gesture, nor is Malak or every second Sith Lord "destroying" Obi-Wan via the Force, etc. We're just vastly, vastly overexaggerating the gaps here. And the inverse applies also: Dooku isn't easily beating Revan in saber combat nor casually overpowering him in the Force, as I've seen the argument be made recently. Nor is Valkorion falling to every second high-tier character, even considering his oft-cited failings in combat. That's another theme that's coming up recently. There's just too much agenda and anti-agenda going on and we keep feeling the need to exaggerate just how big the gap is between characters. It would be appreciated if we just took the facts as they were and modelled arguments around them, rather than setting up an argument first and selectively looking for facts to support them.

Bottom line — Dooku held his own against Yoda in sabers and is close enough to (AotC, which doesn't mean RotS) Yoda in the Force so as to not be beaten by him in a Force-only contest. That is what the sources themselves tell us, and for all your ranting you've rarely produced anything to the actual contrary; you're just finding stuff and trying to make it sound like the total opposite when they're totally reconcilable. It doesn't mean what some people are trying to pass off, but it's still what the facts say and there's no point trying to undermine them at every opportunity, lol.

Regardless of anything ever said on this thread, everybody here goddamn knows Dooku is a tier below Yoda. Saying Dooku matches him or almost does is just plain ridiculous.

Who has ever said that Dooku matches him? We know he was outmatched and that he's an 8 where Yoda is a 9 per Gillard; that he was able to hold his own is a different matter and that is equally a fact.

I honestly don't remember who, but I've seen people on here say Dooku is nearing Yoda and their AotC confrontation [plus other shit] proves this.

Still, I know the majority disagrees, so not a very useful thread.