Luke Cage Vs Winter Soldier

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except all Punisher has is military training (the same kind as Luke in fact), yet the guy can hang with the likes of Daredevil, who was trained by the leader of the Chaste, and can fodderize groups of trained ninjas. And nameless SHIELD and Hydra agents have also gone down pretty easily to more notable characters before. So, judging purely on supposed credentials doesn't always give the most accurate representation, as skill levels can still fluctuate wildly from person to person. Like I said, I do consider Bucky more skilled, but I don't see him as being totally untouchable by Luke either.

But I am fine with agreeing to disagree on the topic for now. It won't be too long until we get a better indicator. As mentioned previously, The Defenders should give us a better impression of where Luke stands. From the looks of the trailer, he was capable of tagging Iron Fist just fine, but we won't know the proper context until the show comes out.

True, good call on the Punisher. Still if we do go by just plain skill shown on screen and not base it on pure credentials then Cage doesn't really have h2h feats that will put him on level with top SHIELD agents. IIRC, back before he had powers he was having trouble taking on 2-3 thugs. Punisher took out a whole bunch of prisoners, unarmed.

Anyway, my point here is that Bucky's skill is quite a ways above Cage's who, for all his supposed training and experience, still fights like a brawler. And as long as Bucky fights smart he should be able to avoid most shots from Cage. The few that do land Bucky should be strong enough to either shrug them off or deflect enough that they don't do a lot of damage.

The problem comes in if Bucky decides to fight head on like he usually does, Cage's durability will eventually win the fight for him.

Also just something I'd like to note, Cage seems to get tired faster than Bucky.

Originally posted by FrothByte
True, good call on the Punisher. Still if we do go by just plain skill shown on screen and not base it on pure credentials then Cage doesn't really have h2h feats that will put him on level with top SHIELD agents. IIRC, back before he had powers he was having trouble taking on 2-3 thugs. Punisher took out a whole bunch of prisoners, unarmed.

Anyway, my point here is that Bucky's skill is quite a ways above Cage's who, for all his supposed training and experience, still fights like a brawler. And as long as Bucky fights smart he should be able to avoid most shots from Cage. The few that do land Bucky should be strong enough to either shrug them off or deflect enough that they don't do a lot of damage.

The problem comes in if Bucky decides to fight head on like he usually does, Cage's durability will eventually win the fight for him.

Also just something I'd like to note, Cage seems to get tired faster than Bucky.

Even if you want to label him a brawler, his skill was still good enough to allow him to take on multiple thugs without getting tagged once. He was blocking, dodging or catching their blows with no apparent effort. Same with the clearly trained MA who was flipping around yet still got owned. And, as you yourself just pointed out, Bucky isn't like Cap. He likes to get in your face and fight head on, which plays to Luke's strengths. And CIS is on unless stated otherwise, which means he will fight like he usually does.

And I am not sure about the getting tired faster thing. He recovered pretty quickly after his fight with Diamondback. It was just that Diamondback's punches were rocking him at the time, because Diamondback hits extremely hard (he had comparable strength/striking power to Luke himself), and Luke literally had to let him wail on him repeatedly to expend all the energy in the suit. He was still standing and ready to go when he laid Diamondback out. Sure, he was breathing a bit harder than he was when it started, but it was hardly like he was down and out. He literally just wiped the bit of blood off his lip and strolled off with Claire. I mean do you think Bucky would be breathing any easier if he had to stand there and let Diamondback hit him repeatedly without fighting back? He'd likely be in worse shape, considering he doesn't actually have Luke's durability. And I don't recall Luke shown getting tired at any other point in the show, except when he was suffering from Judas bullet wounds.

Also, be glad I am not H1. He would probably have argued that Cage's punches come at 100+mph because of how far he can send people with clean hits. Nonsense of course, but he has used that kind of argument before.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If we consider Bucky to be roughly equal to Cap in strength and Cap was strong enough to rock Ironman with his bare fists then Cage isn't no selling Bucky's regular hits either.

And Bucky was nearly untouchable in h2h unless confronted with other fighters with enhanced speed and agility as well (Cap and BP) or had mobility advantages (Falcon) or had a huge advantage in strength (IM).

You a fool. Cap can't do shit to IM. Not even a scratch. Knocking someone back a little due to collision has nothing to do with damage. Cap can punch IM 200 times with no damage done. Cap would break his hands actually.

And Cap >>>>>Bucky except for metal arm.

Anyway Cage grabs Bucky then it is over.
Cage wins all 3.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Even if you want to label him a brawler, his skill was still good enough to allow him to take on multiple thugs without getting tagged once. He was blocking, dodging or catching their blows with no apparent effort. Same with the clearly trained MA who was flipping around yet still got owned. And, as you yourself just pointed out, Bucky isn't like Cap. He likes to get in your face and fight head on, which plays to Luke's strengths. And CIS is on unless stated otherwise, which means he will fight like he usually does.

And I am not sure about the getting tired faster thing. He recovered pretty quickly after his fight with Diamondback. It was just that Diamondback's punches were rocking him at the time, because Diamondback hits extremely hard (he had comparable strength/striking power to Luke himself), and Luke literally had to let him wail on him repeatedly to expend all the energy in the suit. He was still standing and ready to go when he laid Diamondback out. Sure, he was breathing a bit harder than he was when it started, but it was hardly like he was down and out. He literally just wiped the bit of blood off his lip and strolled off with Claire. I mean do you think Bucky would be breathing any easier if he had to stand there and let Diamondback hit him repeatedly without fighting back? He'd likely be in worse shape, considering he doesn't actually have Luke's durability. And I don't recall Luke shown getting tired at any other point in the show, except when he was suffering from Judas bullet wounds.

Also, be glad I am not H1. He would probably have argued that Cage's punches come at 100+mph because of how far he can send people with clean hits. Nonsense of course, but he has used that kind of argument before.

How can sending someone flying at incredible speeds while punching far slower
not nonsense?

Originally posted by h1a8
How can sending someone flying at incredible speeds while punching far slower
not nonsense?

In the real world, sure. But comic books, and comic book adaptations, often don't follow the laws of physics (especially in the MCU). Sending people flying in that manner (like what was shown during the final fight between Luke and Diamondback) is used as a stylistic way of indicating super strength, not super speed.

@ H1 Also, again with this Cap>>>>Bucky thing. This discussion has been held before and, based on their respective fights with each other and the fact that Cap has only manage to temp KO him once, with a ton of effort and the help of a distraction (Bucky diving for the targeting chip in CA:TWS), as well as statements from the Director's commentary, they are close to each other. You keep bringing up intent of portrayal in different threads? Well, the Russos made their intent of portrayal very certain with their own words. Using phrases such as "doppelgangers", "equally potent", "equally matched", "super soldier versus super soldier" etc. makes it clear. You claim Jimmy's words should be accepted as 100% truth with regards to SG and the key, but when the people behind the two films Bucky was in make their intent very clear, you claim the opposite is true.

Also, I am for Cage winning round 1, and potentially round 3 (Rob brought up a good point about that), but how is he winning round 2, where Bucky gets "all gear"? Pretty sure taking a couple of grenades to the face will ruin even Cage's day.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
In the real world, sure. But comic books, and comic book adaptations, often don't follow the laws of physics (especially in the MCU). Sending people flying in that manner (like what was shown during the final fight between Luke and Diamondback) is used as a stylistic way of indicating super strength, not super speed.

TBH, you are right in a way. Scientifically, strength and durability (lack of give or large spring constant) does play a role in sending people flying without having great speed.

I'll prove it.

Collisions are bound by the law of conservation of momentum.

Momentum = mass x velocity

Mass = amount of inertia (or ability to resist change in tangential velocity).

Note: Mass =/= amount of matter

So large strength and durability creates a larger inertia and thus a larger momentum while keeping velocity constant. This will cause the struck object to be sent flying far faster than the strike.

Also a cue ball in pool can send the objective ball (same mass) off faster than the cue ball was hit at when using "draw English".

So scientifically (instead of comic laws) it is backed up too.

Originally posted by h1a8
TBH, you are right in a way. Scientifically, strength and durability (lack of give or large spring constant) does play a role in sending people flying without having great speed.

I'll prove it.

Collisions are bound by the law of conservation of momentum.

Momentum = mass x velocity

Mass = amount of inertia (or ability to resist change in tangential velocity).

Note: Mass =/= amount of matter

So large strength and durability creates a larger inertia and thus a larger momentum while keeping velocity constant. This will cause the struck object to be sent flying far faster than the strike.

Also a cue ball in pool can send the objective ball (same mass) off faster than the cue ball was hit at when using "draw English".

So scientifically (instead of comic laws) it is backed up too.

Getting tired of you attempts at pseudo physics. You're trying to dumb-down the equation and neglecting a bunch of variables, like the angle that the hit is thrown, how much the opponent is able to brace themselves, the weight of the opponent, the weight of the attacker and how much weight they're actually able to put into the hit, the type of hit thrown (is it a snapping movement or one with a follow through?), the hardness of the surface used to make the hit, which part of the body a person is hit... and these are just stuff off the top of my head.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised. Basing on how you think lifting strength automatically translates to striking strength I think it's obvious that you have zero knowledge of how fighting actually works.

IIRC before getting his powers Luke pulled a Rocky and let his opponent wail on him till he got tired.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Getting tired of you attempts at pseudo physics. You're trying to dumb-down the equation and neglecting a bunch of variables, like the angle that the hit is thrown, how much the opponent is able to brace themselves, the weight of the opponent, the weight of the attacker and how much weight they're actually able to put into the hit, the type of hit thrown (is it a snapping movement or one with a follow through?), the hardness of the surface used to make the hit, which part of the body a person is hit... and these are just stuff off the top of my head.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised. Basing on how you think lifting strength automatically translates to striking strength I think it's obvious that you have zero knowledge of how fighting actually works.

Did you even read the post? I completely agreed with Vault and added proof to support it. I included the most relevant things

Durability (hardness), velocity (which includes the angle), mass of both, etc.

Originally posted by h1a8
Did you even read the post? I completely agreed with Vault and added proof to support it. I included the most relevant things

Durability (hardness), velocity (which includes the angle), mass of both, etc.

It doesn't matter if you disagree or agree, it's the fact that you keep trying to use your basic physics to explain something a lot more complicated.

Here's a brief example to show you how your equations are simply not including all necessary variables:

Scenario 1:
Guy1 outweighs Guy2 by 100 lbs. Guy1 delivers a right hook (or a roundhouse haymaker if you prefer) to Guy2 on his chin, putting all his strength behind it, putting as much speed as he can in the punch, putting his weight behind it and even stepping forward and torquing his body to ensure maximum momentum. What's likely going to happen is Guy2's head gets snapped to the side and he gets knocked out, which then means he'll probably fall down. He will not get pushed back, in fact he probably won't even move his feet at all. He falls down, not because of the force of the punch but merely due to him being knocked out.

Scenario 2:
Guy1 weighs the same as Guy2. Guy1 puts his hand gently on Guy2's chest, straightens his arm then takes a full step forward. Unless Guy2 has properly braced himself, the probable outcome of this scenario is that Guy2 will get pushed back, taking 1 or 2 steps back depending on how big a step Guy1 takes. If Guy2 is completely unprepared and Guy1 takes a more aggressive step forward, there's a likelihood that Guy2 will not only take a step or 2 back but might even fall on his ass.

So using these 2 scenarios, scenario 1 actually has Guy1 using more strength, more speed, more weight, a more rigid surface (fist vs. palm) and yet did not displace Guy2 as much as in scenario 2.

h1 knows some of the right terms and equations, mostly because he looked them up, but he doesn't actually have enough knowledge to properly use them. it's why he mostly just makes up numbers.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It doesn't matter if you disagree or agree, it's the fact that you keep trying to use your basic physics to explain something a lot more complicated.

Here's a brief example to show you how your equations are simply not including all necessary variables:

Scenario 1:
Guy1 outweighs Guy2 by 100 lbs. Guy1 delivers a right hook (or a roundhouse haymaker if you prefer) to Guy2 on his chin, putting all his strength behind it, putting as much speed as he can in the punch, putting his weight behind it and even stepping forward and torquing his body to ensure maximum momentum. What's likely going to happen is Guy2's head gets snapped to the side and he gets knocked out, which then means he'll probably fall down. He will not get pushed back, in fact he probably won't even move his feet at all. He falls down, not because of the force of the punch but merely due to him being knocked out.

Scenario 2:
Guy1 weighs the same as Guy2. Guy1 puts his hand gently on Guy2's chest, straightens his arm then takes a full step forward. Unless Guy2 has properly braced himself, the probable outcome of this scenario is that Guy2 will get pushed back, taking 1 or 2 steps back depending on how big a step Guy1 takes. If Guy2 is completely unprepared and Guy1 takes a more aggressive step forward, there's a likelihood that Guy2 will not only take a step or 2 back but might even fall on his ass.

So using these 2 scenarios, scenario 1 actually has Guy1 using more strength, more speed, more weight, a more rigid surface (fist vs. palm) and yet did not displace Guy2 as much as in scenario 2.

To send someone or something FLYING through the air with a STRIKE depends on pushing force, durability (stiffness), and velocity.

It's called "The Law of Conservation of Momentum".