DC's Doomsday Clock · Comic Books

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Dr. Manhattan Discussion

Given the partial-reveal in Flash #22, I am now fairly confident that Dr. Manhattan IS, in fact, responsible for the Rebirth fiasco, and we aren't being misled...

*That being said, this thread is intended to discuss Manhattan's motives and such -- WHY would he even bother affecting mainstream continuity like this..? mmm

Lets starts with what we know Manhattan did to the DCU...

Per Wally: after the culmination of Flashpoint, when reality was being remade anew and was at its most vulnerable/malleable, Manhattan interjected and 'stole' 10 years from continuity:
http://i.imgur.com/UrtEpJV.jpg

Why would he do this? Why steal one specific decade from the DCU???

In the original Watchmen series, Manhattan stated that he cannot directly alter the future. What can happen does happen -- everything is preordained:

In fact, Manhattan stated that even he falls under the proverbial 'blanket' of predestination:
http://i.imgur.com/VDARV3v.jpg
Manhattan: "Why does my perception of time distress you? [...] Everything is preordained. Even my responses [...] We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

Though as we saw in Before Watchmen, even this temporal 'limitation' of his didn't stop Manhattan from experimenting on the universal structure nonetheless. He originally started small, mind you -- changing very minor things in order to affect a certain outcome he favored... Extremely subtle changes(albeit with relatively large ramifications):
http://i.imgur.com/FIg8TGH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2820v2I.jpg
Manhattan: "It's all a matter of perspective. And perspectives can be changed with the slightest nudge [...] And a new Quantum Universe of events and potentials is created in an instant [...] Born in the split between what might have been, and what now is."

By the end of the mini, however, Manhattan had graduated into intentonally creating and destroying entire universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/iH2WmR4.jpg
Manhattan: "I tell him about accidentally becoming a Quantum Observer capable of creating universes with even the most casual act [...] I tell him about destroying the very alternate universes I created."

The mini concluded with Manhattan venturing off on his own, and creating entirely new life ex nihilo:
http://i.imgur.com/EsHGjC3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n8gwOsf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DI57Uew.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/d25jFmI.jpg
Manhattan: "I cannot wait to see what this new box reveals [...] Perhaps you will become something amazing [...] And perhaps we will become something amazing, together [...] I would like that very much."

*Additionally, based on the Epilogue of Flash #22 --along with the recent teasers/solicits for the upcoming "Doomsday Clock" arc-- we know that Manhattan and Superman are intimately tied-together somehow:

**Phil had a great theory regarding the deeper meaning of that Epilogue, btw:

Originally posted by Phil
Superman [alien who became more human than most] will be portrayed as the antithesis of Dr Manhatan [human who became alienated]. That's why Manhattan specifically targeted him for the split, and I'm betting he's behind a lot of Superman's [and DC U] corruption. It will be interesting when they confront each other.

👆

So what do you guys think? Is this just another one of Manhattan's 'experiments' to try and break the mold of predestination(so to speak), or is there something deeper behind his machinations?

Discuss...

Blockythe1guy Senior Member

Dr. Manhattan might have changed the DC Universe into a blank state which was New 52 due how unrealistic it looked when he made it and tried to made the DC Universe later into something dark and edgy like Watchman Universe to see how would Superman and co deal with it.

Sounds simple, But that's what seems to be so far.

Is it also possible that Dr. Manhattan is the one who made the "Flaw" within Primal Monitor as well?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Blockythe1guy
Is it also possible that Dr. Manhattan is the one who made the "Flaw" within Primal Monitor as well?

I suppose that comes down to whether you think Manhattan originally created the entire DCU-proper, or if he is simply manipulating what is already there...

cdtm Restricted

Everything after the first two scans is post Watchmen?

Then it's a total retcon on how his powers work. If the only real difference between us and Dr. M. is that he experiences every single moment of his timeline simultaniously, then it should absolutely be impossible for him to alter something, because according to his model of existance everything is already predestined to happen. Only he can see it all at once, while we experience it from moment to moment.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

^ Or perhaps the changes he made are how things were ALWAYS going to happen. That would still align with the concept of predestination, after all. /shrug

I mean, we know for a fact the concept of predestination still applies to Manhattan on *some* level, as that text was explicitly placed on his recent partial-reveal page for a reason...

Zack M Senior Member

I got this on another forum. Someone replied:

I doubt anyone's manipulating Manhattan. The natural progression of the overall storyline and hints provided suggests more of a cosmic chess match between Dr. Manhattan and Mr. Oz. They're the power players. I mean, its not like there's not room where they could introduce someone else could be behind the scenes as a third party but it'd be really hamfisted at this point. Needless shock value. They've already set up their cards just fine as is and played up Manhattan himself being the "hidden, thus far faceless threat". Granted the readers know who it is but the characters don't, and that's what's important. There does not need to be another.

What do you think?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

^ I mentioned something similar a few weeks back. 👆

There are SO many unanswered questions right now. *Why* did Manhattan steal 10 years from the DCU? *Who* is Mr. Oz, and *why* is he running around the multiverse 'collecting' various characters as to remove them from play? *Are* Manhattan and Oz even working together, or are they actually engaged in some sort of cosmic warfare that has yet to be revealed? etc. etc. etc.

Really hoping Johns brings all of this together seamlessly/cohesively. It certainly has the potential to be an absolutely fantastic event, IF it continues to be handled right...

Zack M Senior Member

Hahaha, nice smiley.

Mr. Oz Vs Lex Luthor in August Solicitations.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Zack M
Hahaha, nice smiley.
Mr. Oz Vs Lex Luthor in August Solicitations.

Indeed. 👆

For those who aren't yet aware...

And while we may not learn who he really is until Doomsday Clock hits stands this November, it looks like we'll at least get something worthwhile this August in the pages of Action Comics when "Mr. Oz makes his final move against the Man of Tomorrow." Oddly enough, this arc won't be penned by fan favorite Dan Jurgens, but rather, Rob Williams, whom we already know to be taking the reins of Trinity that very month. Whether the switch is permanent or Jurgens is just taking a month or two off remains to be seen.
Anyways, here's the skinny on Action Comics #985, which'll see Superman and Lex Luthor once again uniting for the greater good:
Written by ROB WILLIAMS - Art and cover by GUILLEM MARCH - Variant cover by MIKEL JANIN
"EVE OF DESTRUCTION" part one! Superman finds himself side by side with Lex Luthor once more, but is his former foe truly committed to being a hero, or is it just a ruse to gain the Man of Steel's trust? As world events point to something dark on the horizon, the mysterious Mr. Oz makes his final move against the Man of Tomorrow.
On sale AUGUST 9 - 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US - RATED T
_______________________________________________
Then, in Action Comics #986, Luthor is said to confront the villain by his lonesome, leading to one of them being "changed forever." If we had to guess, Lex will be the one getting the short end of the stick, but in the meantime, you can check out the official solicit for that issue below and form your own theories:
Written by ROB WILLIAMS - Art and cover by GUILLEM MARCH - Variant cover by MIKEL JANIN
"EVE OF DESTRUCTION" part two! The inhumanities of Earth put even Superman's trust to the test as he and Lex Luthor begin to see a pattern emerging that points to Mr. Oz and his agents. When Lex confronts Mr. Oz alone, one walks away changed forever.
On sale AUGUST 23 - 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US - RATED T

-Source

I'd wager the interaction between Mr. Oz and Luthor(which will inevitably culminate with Oz revealing his identity) will be nothing less than epic. droolio

As of now, I'm thinking he will be revealed as the obvious choice: none other than Ozymandias/Adrian Veidt himself. As mentioned above: not only is there NO reason for DC to make him anyone else at this point, but Adrian would also make the most canonical sense given the other key player in this event(ie. Dr. Manhattan -- of whom Ozy is intimately familiar with)... If he doesn't end up being Adrian, however, then he's Alex Luthor Jr.

...Frankly, I'm hoping for the former. Johns using Luthor Jr. as the 'big bad' in yet another one of his major events would border on ridiculous -- he shouldn't be Johns' proverbial 'calling card', imo. ermm

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Regardless of what happens, this event has certainly rekindled my interest in DC... I don't always like Johns, but the guy can undeniably write a damn good(and wholly thought provoking) large-scale event. 👆

In the words of Dr. Manhattan: "I cannot wait to see what this new box reveals."

..........

Martian_mind telepathy+debates+=Pwned

No idea if this theory has already been put out, but I'm going to say it here, just so ya'll can marvel at my brilliance if it turns out to be true.

Firstly, I declare that that this event is somehow linked to the Death of Superman arc. Why? Well, just look at the timing. Doomsday Clock comes out in November, 2017. The first issue of DoS, which was coincidentally titled 'Doomsday' came out in November, 1992, making this the 25th anniversary of what is arguably Superman's most important arc. DC would be insane not to capitalise on such an event.

Now, if we consider Phil's interpretation of how Dr. Manhattan relates to Superman, the idea of him taking Doomsday's place as Superman's ultimate foe makes perfect sense. He's a new challenge, one more appropriate for the modern man of steel. He's not a mindless monster. He's cold and logical, with a justifiable motive for all his wrongdoings. Superman cannot defeat him through a simple slugfest. His victory would have to be moral, intellectual. Something that challenges him in his entirety.

...Of course, knowing comics, this will all end with Superman knocking Manhattan the f*ck out, but still, my point stands.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Like it. 👆

Your theory is also substantiated by the fact that Superman's death at the hands of Doomsday has been referenced quite a bit since Rebirth, in various retellings and whatnot.

His death also represented the winning 'piece' on Mxy's board game, for what it's worth:

Martian_mind telepathy+debates+=Pwned

Hmm, makes sense. If the board game scene represented Myx winning that particular round, perhaps this event will culminate in the ending/beginning of another chapter in Superman/DC's life. After all, they have been stressing how inextricably linked Superman and the universe are for quite some time now.

Prof. T.C McAbe Kryptonian Scientist

I wonder if the focus on the hand of Dr. Manhattan has something to do with the hand of creation at the dawn of time...

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Hmm.

Interesting thought. I'd probably lean towards 'no' -- although we know Manhattan IS 'Godlike' in the sense that he can create/destroy full-fledged universes and such, so I wouldn't count-out that theory entirely. 👆

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Figured I may as well include this...

After beating the christ out of Batman, Eobard Thawne attempted to discover the mystery of 'the button'. He momentarily disappeared, and then reappeared saying that he had seen "God"(ie. Dr. Manhattan)... Soon thereafter he appeared to die:
http://i.imgur.com/cOwhNaf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ty266JJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pUlNyIq.jpg

And Bruce confirmed that Eobard was referring to *the* God:
http://i.imgur.com/XYHuLIx.jpg

However, we recently learned that Eobard managed to survive the above:
http://i.imgur.com/gLcNNUP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/owoYlDd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pdAm7Fu.jpg

...So hopefully he will give us more details behind his encounter with "God" in issues to come. 👆

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Superman: "Who could possibly..?"
Jor-El: "Something BEYOND us... A being able to bend reality to his every whim..."

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

I can only assume Jor-El was referring to Manhattan here...

Considering he has personally encountered Mxy, Jor's dialogue pertaining to Manhattan's level of power is quite telling, to say the least...

riv6672 Senior Member

Picked up the first issue of DOOMSDAY CLOCK just now.
It just seems like one of those books ppl are going to be talking about, and i'm going to wish i'd read/end up reading after the fact, so i'm just gonna go ahead and do it.
The Johns/Frank combo doesnt hurt either.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

The first issue was great IMO.