Originally posted by abhilegend
The first issue was great IMO.
I've seen a lot of ppl online complain at how 'dense' the issue was.
That kinda cracks me up.
Today's comics do tend toward larger panels and splash pages.
The original Watchmen certainly did not.
The first issue at least, was faithful to that. I'll be watching to see if it continues.
Issue one really read like Geoff Johns trying to write like Alan Moore, with the big problem being Geoff Johns is not as good as Alan Moore at writing. Especially in this style.
All the stuff that was trying so hard to be Watchmen, like Rorschach's comments about politics and stuff, felt like a big load of nothing. And also really sounded like they were written by someone in 2017 rather than the early 90's when this takes place. And it could turn out the point is they're a big load of nothing because Rorschach 2 is crazy, and a comment on how so many people fundamentally don't get the point Moore was trying to make with the original Rorschach, but that kind of subtlety and introspection isn't exactly Geoff Johns' style.
Also that Superman scene that ended the book was utter garbage imo. It was so transparent in trying to be dark and serious', and also Superman 'never having a nightmare before' is just dumb.
Idk, I wasn't particularly impressed, but I guess I'm still morbidly curious about where it goes?
And the art was pretty good.
Doomsday Clock is a lot to take in, considering we're only to issue #2 and we've had several WTF moments that REALLY need to be explained.
Spoiler:
Rorschach is alive and black, and now the Edward Blake/Comedian is seemingly alive? Hmm...
I sure do hope that Johns knows what he's doing. I'm enjoying the story, so far, but I sure do hope that the gears get shifted on the plot development.
Re: Dr. Manhattan Discussion
Originally posted by Galan007
*That being said, this thread is intended to discuss Manhattan's motives and such -- WHY would he even bother affecting mainstream continuity like this..? mmm
that's a really good question. i'd read SOME of the oz material in the past months but not all of it. this christmas break i took some time to go over all of it, wondering if any light would be shed on this question. far as i can tell, there isn't much in the oz-related material to address the issue. i have a couple ideas that i'll try and flesh out as we go. i also haven't yet read dc #1 yet, so not sure what was or wasn't revealed exactly there yet. i'll read it soon.
Why would he do this? Why steal one specific decade from the DCU???
i think this question was actually addressed in rebirth. i don't think the 10 years was the important thing, but rather what happened IN those 10 years:
i think the reason THOSE 10 years were stolen was simple: during that period of time many important relationships were formed. flash/iris, clark/lois, even the way the league was formed. the league's relationship with the jsa was created as well i think. in removing that decade, dr m prevented the forging of all these relationships. see wally trying to reach linda in rebirth--when he couldn't he almost couldn't return from...oblivion (but of course barry was there...)
so as wally said--it wasn't the YEARS that were stolen--it was the LOVE formed in that span of time. least that's how i see it.
In fact, Manhattan stated that even he falls under the proverbial 'blanket' of predestination:
http://i.imgur.com/VDARV3v.jpg
Manhattan: "Why does my perception of time distress you? [...] Everything is preordained. Even my responses [...] We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."
no doubt he feels compelled to do what he's doing. i still don't know why he'd try weakening the dcu though.
Manhattan: "It's all a matter of perspective. And perspectives can be changed with the slightest nudge [...] And a new Quantum Universe of events and potentials is created in an instant [...] Born in the split between what might have been, and what now is."
that describes exactly the nature of the flashpoint universe. i'm still unsure why the flashpointverse was destroyed (seemingly) in the button arc in flash/batman though. and likewise the button itself is still confusing. why was it triggered by psycho pirate's mask for example? and why was it given to batman specifically when, from all indications, superman is the focus in this thing? was the button NOT sent by dr m? was it meant to help somehow? give the heroes a chance to figure out what was going on? that would explain why bats got it. it represents a mystery someone else was hoping he might solve? but who else in the watchmenverse could have sent it? ozy? i'd assumed he'd be a villain. unless he was working against dr m and wanted to help the dcu for some reason? so many questions....
By the end of the mini, however, Manhattan had graduated into intentonally creating and destroying entire universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/iH2WmR4.jpg
Manhattan: "I tell him about accidentally becoming a Quantum Observer capable of creating universes with even the most casual act [...] I tell him about destroying the very alternate universes I created."
this sounds pretty cool, but i think it's in reference to schrodinger's cat--he is capable of seeing BOTH outcomes before he opens the box. is the cat dead or alive? we don't know until we open the box. he can see BOTH iterations and can affect things in a way that he can DETERMINE what we will see. in effect, he is creating a universe wherein the cat is dead or alive based on HIS choosing, rather than randomness. i think THAT's is how he creates and destroys universes, as opposed to simply creating the way god was said to have done. it's a...spectacularly cool power imo.
Manhattan: "I cannot wait to see what this new box reveals [...] Perhaps you will become something amazing [...] And perhaps we will become something amazing, together [...] I would like that very much."
i know people thought this scene depicted the creation of the dcnu, but clearly it didn't given that all he did was alter some time to have it come into being. so i wonder what he WAS doing? feels like he created something that he was UNABLE to foresee the results of, which of course doesn't make a lot of sense based on what we know of his abilities.... more questions i hope are clearly answered.
*Additionally, based on the Epilogue of Flash #22 --along with the recent teasers/solicits for the upcoming "Doomsday Clock" arc-- we know that Manhattan and Superman are intimately tied-together somehow:
**Phil had a great theory regarding the deeper meaning of that Epilogue, btw:
👆
So what do you guys think? Is this just another one of Manhattan's 'experiments' to try and break the mold of predestination(so to speak), or is there something deeper behind his machinations?
Discuss...
[/B]
phil's idea is a cool one and might help explain why this is a superman-centric event. based on what we know of manhattan though, i'm not entirely sure he is capable of that level of introspection.
mm said something about the death of superman arc. that struck me through the oz stuff as well. i mean it's impossible to read that rebirth arc (with mxy) and NOT recall the original red/blue superman arc way back just after his resurrection. the red/blue energy that jon used was the same thing, and the split was an obvious parallel. the writers SEEM to be trying to establish some deeper links here that i can't quite see, but i do hope they pay off and are explained. somehow....
now: [OZ SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO STILL HAVEN'T READ THE MATERIAL!!]
oz/jor-el. wtf? why save jor-el? was dr m hoping that he could show superman that even someone as good as his father should have been can be corrupted? yet another way to try and weaken superman? but jor-el STILL wanted to save his son, so was he really evil? would he have served the purpose dr m wanted? and some of jor-el's actions are...inexplicable. the time drake kidnapping for example. why drake? to prevent a strong connection from forming that had been severed? was he simply trying to buy more time for him to save kal? but a unified kal was a lot more likely to draw dr m's attention than anything drake could have done, no?? then why kill jor-el after saving him? i also found it odd that jor-el claimed to have found a place outside of dr m's ability to affect. just so much of it doesn't make sense to me.
i hate to say it but i think this will all just be chocked up to comic book shock and never really amount to anything more than it is. 🙁
anyway, not sure i added much aside from a bunch more questions to discuss, but the idea of these 2 universes meeting is really appealing. hopefully dc is as good as we all hope.
looking back at some of the watchmen stuff, i found this, which i think may be the reason why superman is so critical to this event. not sure how many people read the backstory in watchmen, but start at the bottom of the first page where ACTION COMICS is mentioned:
superman's universe is the antithesis of the watchmen-verse and of course superman himself is the most representative. it's really interesting juxtaposing that bit of backstory with the jor-el revelation. in the reborn arc jor-el does his best to show superman the world in a watchmen-esque way, but superman refuses to give in to that vision and continues to stand for hope and justice in a world where justice seems to have lost meaning.
maybe dr m wants to discover the difference between the worlds somehow? what makes one so dark, and one so bright? i also found the mention of colours interesting. colour plays a large role in the way these universes are represented.
cool stuff. like i said, i hope this series comes together as well as it could. i'll just keep posting random ideas and see if anything generates some interesting conversation.
Originally posted by abhilegend
The first issue was great IMO.
read the first 2 issues finally. i'm...undecided atm. it feels really odd though. the universe ozy comes to is quite a bit different from the current one. i know it's set a year in the future, but it feels VERY different to me--more different than a year can account for. the new origins of rex, the use of helga jace. i found this bit particularly interesting in issue 2:
could manhattan BE on dc earth, disguised all along as a hero or villain? we still have no idea at all regarding the motivations of dr m and why he'd want to weaken the dcu. i'm actually beginning to get the impression that dr m is NOT the big threat behind everything. the more i think about his character, the more this seems like something he wouldn't do. by the end of watchmen he'd come to have a new regard for life as miraculous. so why attack the dcu?
ozy's role in this whole thing is my greatest disappointment so far. i guess he really had nothing at all to do with jor-el or anything else leading up to dc. 🙁
lots more questions, but so far am intrigued enough to want to keep reading.
oh, and quad post ftw. will be going for 5 unless someone else joins in the conversation.... /shrug
So now we know that when Dr. Manhattan 'left' at the end of the original series, he went directly to the mainstream DCU/Earth. That's the only reason how Ozy could have possibly followed Manhattan's electron trail straight from his earth/universe, to the mainstream DC earth/universe:
https://i.imgur.com/VYucGnE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GuQWHxn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oqXcw8F.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HjLPMGr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZAxVxBH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OHmU3DH.jpg
Which is quite interesting, because it implies that the final scene of 'Before Watchmen' DID in fact occur within the mainstream DCU:
Originally posted by Galan007
The mini concluded with Manhattan venturing off on his own, and creating entirely new life ex nihilo:
http://i.imgur.com/EsHGjC3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n8gwOsf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DI57Uew.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/d25jFmI.jpg
Manhattan: "I cannot wait to see what this new box reveals [...] Perhaps you will become something [b]amazing [...] And perhaps we will become something amazing, together [...] I would like that very much."[/B]
mmm
https://www.newsarama.com/38273-doomsday-clock-delayed.html
Any momentum they had is lost.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
No idea if this theory has already been put out, but I'm going to say it here, just so ya'll can marvel at my brilliance if it turns out to be true.Firstly, I declare that that this event is somehow linked to the Death of Superman arc. Why? Well, just look at the timing. Doomsday Clock comes out in November, 2017. The first issue of DoS, which was coincidentally titled 'Doomsday' came out in November, 1992, making this the 25th anniversary of what is arguably Superman's most important arc. DC would be insane not to capitalise on such an event.
Now, if we consider Phil's interpretation of how Dr. Manhattan relates to Superman, the idea of him taking Doomsday's place as Superman's ultimate foe makes perfect sense. He's a new challenge, one more appropriate for the modern man of steel. He's not a mindless monster. He's cold and logical, with a justifiable motive for all his wrongdoings. Superman cannot defeat him through a simple slugfest. His victory would have to be moral, intellectual. Something that challenges him in his entirety.
...Of course, knowing comics, this will all end with Superman knocking Manhattan the f*ck out, but still, my point stands.
That would be freaking great!
