Will address you later DMB.
Surtur you're just rambling and not actually listening (like most bigots).
Originally posted by Kjam
Very well done DMB.Unfortunately, Thor has found himself in a sticky dilemma. By claiming criticism of Islam is an attack on brown people, he has directly associated the religion with said race. Meaning that the worst atrocities committed in the name of Islam are now a racial problem as oppose to one regarding cultures and ideas.
No you're not getting it.
It's the same people, The racists, and the Islam haters. Just look at the EDL or the BNP here (in UK). It's the same with most racists in the US.
Here I'll let someone smart explain it to you and Surtur:
Yes I 'get it'.
You're trying to say that it's impossible to have criticism of Islam without being a racist. We 'get it'. It's just stupid. I doesn't matter if the EDL hegemony hates Islam, they are very right to. This argument is just a deflection because you know that you can't actually defend both islamic dogma or islamic centers of power in the middle east. So you return to the reflexive operandi that labels dissenting opinions as bigotry.
If Islam is bigotry than bigotry is something that should be applauded.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think he has good reason for the pedestal he holds America on, and it's no stretch to say that most western nations are superior culturally to non-western nations, and western nations tend to have a larger white population. Most people who are reasonable would recognize that this isn't due to the racial superiority of white people, but rather how history, economics, and culture played out in different geographic regions of the world, however that doesn't change that western civilization is more culturally advanced than say the middle east.
Yeah but kind of ruined by the need to impose your values all over the world, even if it means bombing them, selling them weapons, and placing puppet leaders there to do your bidding.
That's when the "pedestal he holds America on" because more fascism than an appreciation for higher values.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm opposed to the extent of Surtur's stances, but it's obvious that his criticisms are of ideology and culture as opposed to attempting to make a point about the racial superiority of white people.
I don't think that's obvious at all.
Look at any deaths or terrorists he brings up as an issue. It's always coloured terrorists or white people getting killed. He has no issue with White Supremacist killings at all. Probably because aside from the killing their ideologies are overall pretty close to his.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Surtur isn't exactly fond of the other religions as well, and I've gotten into a very aggressive discussion with him in the past over his comments on Christianity, so he's hardly fond of any religion and thinks its all retarded.
Which proves my point. He's not "fond" of other religions, but only continuously hates on Islam and Muslims. I think it's pretty obvious why. Because in terms of the actual ideology there's hardly any difference.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He does place a special emphasis on Islam, however I think that's due to the modern prevalence of Islamic terrorism when compared to Judaism, Christianity, or any other religion, as well as the humans rights abuses that take place in the middle east, and the negative impact the migrant crisis has had on Europe. It's very obvious from Surtur's posting history that he gives way more of a shit about those things than about whether or not the people doing them were brown or white.
That just goes back to his "America and the West are supreme" fascist ideology. Islam's just easy pickings for him from that point of view.
But if you want to get into it, look at places like China and North Korea. They're no muslim countries, and look at the massive human rights abuses there.
Tends to happen in under developed countries. But then look at muslim countires like Malyasia. They're hardly brewing terrorists there.
And the whole terrorism attacks is politically motivated. Maybe stop invading and occupying and arming other countries and then see what the situation looks like. Instead of just hating for the sake of hating.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes because white nationalists tend to racialize culture and hate brown people. If a white nationalist perceives Western Culture to be a white construct, and perceives an Islamic culture comprising of mostly brown people to stand in direct opposition to Western civilization, and given that they already would hate a brown person just for existing, if they view a bunch of brown people committing terrorism, of course they're going to hate Muslims.
Bingo. And that's the group Surtur belongs to.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Someone could hate Muslims without racializing culture at all though, they could say Western Culture is the greatest culture in the world and not have a problem with a racial minority within Western Culture, yet still perceive Islam to be bad on the basis of an ideological opposition to western culture and on the basis of how Islamic ideology motivates most of the terrorist attacks in the modern world. It would be possible for someone to loathe Islam to the horrific extent of wanting all Muslims to be executed for their beliefs and not give a shit about anyone's skin color.
Anyone who hates Muslims that much that they want them all dead, definitely has racist and/or fascist tendencies. As lets face it the majority of muslims are just born into the religion and never done anything wrong.
So it's just people who want to see the world as "Us and Them". And those people are Fascists and almost always Racists as well.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The white supremacist perspective almost always leads to an anti-Islamic perspective, however an anti-Islamic perspective can very easily exist without any racial motivations whatsoever. Just because one group tends to hold a certain point of view doesn't mean that you can implicate someone with a similar point of view as holding that group's ideology.
The thing they have in common with racists though is that they're just plain out Haters.
When they Hate to that extent and have that level of prejudice, it's very unlikely that they'd stop being like that if muslims were suddenly all gone.
And i'm not talking about criticisms of Islam as a religion. I'm talking about the proactive Hate people like Surtur have, without any kind of objectivity or fairness.
I've heard people criticise Islam but admit Islam brought about a lot of human rights for it's time, but just that they don't believe it's on par with modern day values.
Those people are not haters, and are objectively and fairly discussing Islam and Muhammad without a hate agenda.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You know who would be absolutely disgusted by white people oppressing black people? Black supremacists, and the reasoning why black supremacists would extremely passionately hate white people oppressing black people is very obvious, however you can very easily hold the point of view that oppressing black people is wrong without being a black supremacist.
Oh it works both ways. Muslim extremist who hate non-muslims are also likely to be the biggest racists.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Surtur has a very clear contempt for Islamic ideology and culture, for which he cites human rights abuses and terrorism, and clearly holds western civilization in high regard (for a very good reason). I have never seen Surtur make any attempt to racialize the cultural difference between western nations and middle eastern nations, and everything I've seen suggests his contempt for Islam is based upon an ideological premise rather than a racial one even if you want to argue his premise or reasoning is flawed.
Addressed.
But again if you look at racist groups like the EDL, this whole "Islam" hate is an easy way around "racialising cultural differences."
Again look at the female circumcision issue. It's a Somalian issue which Surtur has decided to make an Islamic issue, simply because Somalians are mostly muslims.
Examples like that Prove Islam hating is just too easy a way to get around racialising these issues, and Surtur is a prime example of that.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Simply put, Surtur doesn't make any attempt to bring race into discussions about Islam, his objections to Islam are ones that can very easily exist without any sort of racial bias, and the only thing to substantiate your claim that he's just a sneaky racist is the fact that white supremacists hate Islam and that Islam is made-up of predominantly brown people. Which is to say you have no evidence, because holding a similar stance to a group doesn't mean you have the same ideology as a group, and just because a culture or ideology is comprised of a specific demographic doesn't mean you can't criticize that group without hating that demographic.
That's the point. He avoids bringing races into discussion, but is clearly attacking those races and nationalities anyway. And to top it off, I've never once seen him show any kind of concern for anyone or any race who wasn't a White Westerner. Unless of course it fits into his "Hate Islam" agenda.
So you put his Islam Hate together with his "White Westerners come first" attitude and well, you can do the math.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
For all I know Surtur could be a raging white supremacist with KKK robes, a hanging tree, and paintings of brutally murdered black people hanging on a wall, but until there's any actual evidence suggesting his contempt for Islam is in any way racially motivated, then accusations that he's just a racist have no place in this discussion.
It's the double standards that expose him.
He's not constantly hating on Christianity or Judasim. It's just Islam, a predominantly arab, black and asian religion.
It's his reverence for everything White and Western. It's his clear "I don't give a shit" attitude when it comes to black people being shot dead by white cops.
Let's not be naive. Hate it hate. Which is why Islamophobia and Racists are usually interlinked.
And like I said it goes both ways. The muslim terrorists/extremists who hate Non-Muslims are racists as well. Hate is Hate and its all interlinked.
I'll post this by Trevor Noah again:
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but kind of ruined by the need to impose your values all over the world, even if it means bombing them, selling them weapons, and placing puppet leaders there to do your bidding.
This isn't really a valid deflection here.
What Surt and DMB are arguing is that North West Euro values have generally produced some of the most tolerant, high tech and comfortable places to live in. American's and British, by and large are responsible for the biggest breakthroughs in medicine, industry, rule of law and liberty.
The idea is that a people and their values make a culture, what you're doing with this statement , is claiming that decisions of governments, bureaucrats and (((bankers))), usually against the will of the people, is also part of said culture. It's not. The vast majority of Americans have taken up an anti-war stance since the days of Vietnam. That is true today for the proxy war in Syria. If Trump ever decided to surrender his better will to globohomo elitists, and invade Syria with a ground force to rival the Gulf War, his approval rating would drop from the mid 40's to low 20's.
That's when the "pedestal he holds America on" because more fascism than an appreciation for higher values.
This doesn't even make sense. You took way too long to make such a sloppy reply. I reckon this incoherent rambling signals a lack of better response. Just inserting words that might resonate with a vague train of thought. Although "HE'S RACIST" doesn't really need further elucidation. You have decided that criticism of Islam is an attack on brown people and not much will convince you otherwise.
I don't think that's obvious at all.Look at any deaths or terrorists he brings up as an issue. It's always coloured terrorists or white people getting killed.
Doesn't matter. The point is that terror in the west is disproportionally committed in the name of Allah. There is an exact ideology that can be pinpointed as the problem with said trend. There is a problem with Islam in Europe. We should quell that shit from coming to America. It's a shit, backwards religion and it's utterly incompatible with secular western democracy. It's actually no exaggeration to state that neo-nazis have a greater cultural connection to western civilisation than muslims and could be more easily accommodated. After all, the vast majority of neo-nazis have never hurt anyone and are just trying to live out their lives in their own way. So what if a few stab, shoot or beat to death the odd black or jew before disappearing back into the ranks of the other non-violent neo-nazis?
He has no issue with White Supremacist killings at all.
Probably because aside from the killing their ideologies are overall pretty close to his own
That's because, if you're reading the Huffington Post, the definition of 'white supremacist killings' is being widened to accommodate anyone who is white and kills someone. And honestly, by focussing on this point, all you're really doing is being hypocritical. One could just say that your selective focus on any killer that is white is indicative of your contempt for them. Which is probably true. I have a hunch that this entire rant against Surt is a projection of your own prejudices. As the saying goes, it takes one to know one.
Which proves my point. He's not "fond" of other religions, but only continuously hates on Islam and Muslims. I think it's pretty obvious why. Because in terms of the actual ideology there's hardly any difference.
Islam is objectively more violent than the other three, certainly moreso than Christianity. You can think that violence is cool and Muhhamed(spelling) was a 'bad ass' capture and control mastermind, but let's not lie regarding the matter.
Now you are defending Islam, because obviously it is a religion of Peace that only coincidentally was forced to wage 1400 years of defensive wars and was only stopped by the superior technology of the West. Many Muslims don't know much about their religion or their texts, they read less Islamic texts than I did, also quite a few are dishonest - and yes there are also others who would disobey the commands of Mohammed and only that makes them peaceful.
Even if the 3 religions were identical in ideology, How do you possibly explain all of the rife jihadism today and over the past 1400 years?
Here's how British Muslims really think:
- 2/3rds of British Muslims wouldn't report someone plotting a terror attack
- 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam"
- 50% support ISIS
It's funny that all it takes is anonymous polls to get them admit their extremist views to this extent. And with social desirability bias and Taqqiyah it means the actual numbers are a lot higher.
That just goes back to his "America and the West are supreme" fascist ideology.
And here Darth Thor indites general patriotism as something that's evil. Of course, I doubt he'll be applying the same standards to people in Gambia or Nigeria for having pride in their nations. How dare those fascist africans think well of their countries.
Islam's just easy pickings for him from that point of view.
Islam is easy pickings because it's a genuine cancer to the world. As is with all organised religion. Christianity isn't exempt from this. The difference is that christianity isn't a power structure in around 17 different countries currently that executes people for their sins.
But if you want to get into it, look at places like China and North Korea. They're no muslim countries, and look at the massive human rights abuses there.
That's because the issues on the table are settled here. No one is defending the human rights abuses of said regimens. Why are people doing it for Islam?
And the whole terrorism attacks is politically motivated.
This isn't an excuse. Anjem Choudary, a terrorist sympathiser, by the way is a leader of Islam in the UK - he is recognized by thousands as such and there are countless other Imams who say pretty much the same thing except maybe the total veneration for all terrorists - most Imams shy away from that. But you would not know, because you have not looked into the teachings.
When the Muslim population remains under 2% in a country, they will be seen primarily as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the current situation in:
United States — Muslim 0.6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%
As the Muslim population reaches 2% to 5%, they begin to recruit from ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, within prisons and street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food and increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature such food on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply (not to mention, the only people who can get hired at these jobs are muslims. More halal meat - less jobs for non-muslims). This is happening in:
France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%
Soon they begin to apply pressure to allow Sharia law within their own communities (sometimes ghettos). They will start by pressuring the government to allow a "watered down" version of sharia law, until they grow to the size where they have the power to enforce full sharia with little struggle.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam.” These tensions are seen on a regular basis in:
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%
The violence increases when the Muslim population reaches 20%. “After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues,” such as in:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare,” such as in:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, persecution of non-believing “infidels” rises significantly, including sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia law as a weapon, and Jizya, a tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out “infidels,” and move toward a 100% Muslim society, which has been experienced to some degree in:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%
A 100% Muslim society will theoretically usher in their version of peace — the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. “Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word,” such as in:
Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%
By the way - the numbers were from some time ago - they are already higher.
You seem to forget the times of 700-1800 where Muslims invaded, killed and enslaved non-stop almost all without any fight back from the other major powers. Thier conquest also stopped not because of ethical reasoning, but because the West became overwhelmingly strong.
You offer zero solutions. There would still be millions of unemployed Muslim men sitting around and waiting for the Caliphate to appear. It does not even help if they get an education - the recent Paris hammer and knife attacker had a Master degree from Sweden. Still he decided to rather crack skulls.
Muslim terrorists were attacking the US before the invasion of Iraq and before the meddling in Syria and Libya. According to this page, there were 10 Islamist terrorist attacks between 1990 and 2002, before the invasion of Iraq. There were 7 incidents perpetrated by anti-abortion group "Army of God" although there were only 4 separate perpetrators. There were 2 incidents from White Racists (one of which was motivated by this religion).
Regardless, we can't go back in time and prevent Bush and Obama/Clinton from making those mistakes. Destabilization is a hell of a lot easier than stabilization when the population has a toxic mixture of gross inequality, low economic aptitude, and a religion preaching violent supremacy. Nobody voted for Bush to invade Iraq. That was sold to the public with deception and committed despite massive opposition. In 2008 a big part of Obama's platform involved condemning the Iraq war. So people voted for him to punish Bush for his mistakes, and Obama won. Yet Obama and Hillary turned around and did more of the same, they just tried and failed to be sneaky about it.
Bingo. And that's the group Surtur belongs to.
Yeah, no. I've never seen Surt come closing to claiming that Western civilisation is a construct of whiteness. Wether it be true or not.
Anyone who hates Muslims that much that they want them all dead, definitely has racist and/or fascist tendencies. As lets face it the majority of muslims are just born into the religion and never done anything wrong.
most of this is just rambling and repeating points, so I will do the same.
Borders are not killing people.
Borders prevent the killing of people.
"Islamophobia" prevents the killing of people.
Teaching about Islam prevents the killing of people.
Muslims kill people! Islam kills people!
Wait until the numbers are 15-30% in the West and when the Islamic parties try to make all meat halal, try to ban dogs as pets, want to have sharia embedded in the constitution. The best is yet to come and the Darth Thors will be like the women lying on the floor and crying that his night out ended in a Muslim knife attack. The Muslim men were just living their religion to a T - all cultures are equal, all religions are equal, ideologies do not matter. If you are claiming that this is a construct of race, than you are justifying racism.
So it's just people who want to see the world as "Us and Them".
So kind of like calling people who criticize islam racists and bigots, even when there is no evidence of said claims being true?
When they Hate to that extent and have that level of prejudice, it's very unlikely that they'd stop being like that if muslims were suddenly all gone.
They probably would stop. The biggest population of asians in the Uk are indians and Pakistani's. There aren't a large number of folk who constantly berate indians for their cultural norms . And what is separating those two racially identical nations? their religions. Hinduism isn't perfect, but it's far better than islam.
And i'm not talking about criticisms of Islam as a religion. I'm talking about the proactive Hate people like Surtur have, without any kind of objectivity or fairness.I've heard people criticise Islam but admit Islam brought about a lot of human rights for it's time, but just that they don't believe it's on par with modern day values.
Those people are not haters, and are objectively and fairly discussing Islam and Muhammad without a hate agenda.
Mohammed was the Anti-Jesus. You do not refer to the texts, because you simply look at the kebab shopkeeper and say: "He did not kill me today, he is peaceful. Everything is alright with Islam" . There is nothing wrong with the fact that the perfect Muslim Mohammed sat there having lunch while an entire conquered tribe was executed in front of him? But all those things don't matter to you, your "logic" will not be swayed by the teachings, by the religion, by the entire violent history of the Middle East. You should convert to Islam, it might appeal to you and move to Saudi Arabia.
Oh it works both ways. Muslim extremist who hate non-muslims are also likely to be the biggest racists.
This is just getting sad.
But again if you look at racist groups like the EDL, this whole "Islam" hate is an easy way around "racialising cultural differences."Again look at the female circumcision issue. It's a Somalian issue which Surtur has decided to make an Islamic issue, simply because Somalians are mostly muslims.
Examples like that Prove Islam hating is just too easy a way to get around racialising these issues, and Surtur is a prime example of that.
That's the point. He avoids bringing races into discussion, but is clearly attacking those races and nationalities anyway. And to top it off, I've never once seen him show any kind of concern for anyone or any race who wasn't a White Westerner. Unless of course it fits into his "Hate Islam" agenda.
So you put his Islam Hate together with his "White Westerners come first" attitude and well, you can do the math.
So in other words, Surtur would prefer to look at the ideology behind the problem, rather than the race of the people who are committing it? Sound's pretty anti-rascist to me. In fact, the only one who's constantly bringing race into this, as well as a genuine anti-western sentiment, is you.
Pay no attention to Darth Thor, this is the guy who thinks people stalk him because he is "black or coloured". He's the same person who put forth the logic of "You're using a racist loophole by being racist against Muslims because they are not a race".
He's an imbecile.
I see TBONER was banned. He must have threatened to kill some folk.
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Daesh affiliates really aren't most Muslims. Hatemongering pointless thread. Very sad when any terrorists kill anyone.
True buddy, how could the Muslims be radical terrorists! i am against of this rationalism & as being a mutual friend's of many Muslims, i observed & think that all of the time Real Muslim defend to other Muslims or especially the first preference of that they want to save humanity, why i said real Muslim ? because they don't know rationalism / radical terrorism & they are not bloodthirsty peoples, so i recommend to all STOP threatening/criticizing over Muslims & first see in your collar.
Originally posted by Melisa Jones
True buddy, how could the Muslims be radical terrorists! i am against of this rationalism & as being a mutual friend's of many Muslims, i observed & think that all of the time Real Muslim defend to other Muslims or especially the first preference of that they want to save humanity, why i said real Muslim ? because they don't know rationalism / radical terrorism & they are not bloodthirsty peoples, so i recommend to all STOP threatening/criticizing over Muslims & first see in your collar.
That is so cute.